[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm in favour of equality so in that sense, I think it should be, if other religions are. I don't buy into the rhetoric than one religion is any "worse" than any other religion.

However, I do personally believe that religion and politics should be completely separate, and to go a step further, I would rather that people wake up to the con of organised religion full stop.

Exactly, it's so blatantly a way to have power over people and control

With regards to the BIB in the first paragraph as a woman I think that's a silly thing to say when you look at how women are treated in some religions although that probably has more to do with culture than the actual religion I think

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Exactly, it's so blatantly a way to have power over people and control

With regards to the BIB in the first paragraph as a woman I think that's a silly thing to say when you look at how women are treated in some religions although that probably has more to do with culture than the actual religion I think

I think we're pretty quick to forget, though, that Christians / Westerners didn't treat women (or homosexuals, or ethnic minorities) all that differently less than a century ago... and really no differently at all 150 years ago (the whole thing, from rights, to how much flesh women were allowed to show). The entire world doesn't, and never has, progressed at a uniform rate. We move on, and then are outraged when the rest of the world - which has not had the same time nor opportunity to culturally develop - is not on exactly the same page at exactly the same time.

And that's without even going into the horrible reality that we currently seem to be majorly back-sliding.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think we're pretty quick to forget, though, that Christians / Westerners didn't treat women (or homosexuals, or ethnic minorities) all that differently less than a century ago... and really no differently at all 150 years ago (the whole thing, from rights, to how much flesh women were allowed to show). The entire world doesn't, and never has, progressed at a uniform rate. We move on, and then are outraged when the rest of the world - which has not had the same time nor opportunity to culturally develop - is not on exactly the same page at exactly the same time.

And that's without even going into the horrible reality that we currently seem to be majorly back-sliding.

Oh no I haven't forgotten that about Christianity believe me but I'm talking about the present, we don't need another religion coming in and trying to drag us back there. Also, I'm certainly not one to defend Christianity ever, Ireland is still dealing with the after effects of what the Catholic church did to people in the not so distant past particularly women and children. The point is, we should be trying to get religions away from having any influence on state and schools not encouraging the state to start funding more religions who are even less forward thinking than the ones we had

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh no I haven't forgotten that about Christianity believe me but I'm talking about the present, we don't need another religion coming in and trying to drag us back there. Also, I'm certainly not one to defend Christianity ever, Ireland is still dealing with the after effects of what the Catholic church did to people in the not so distant past particularly women and children. The point is, we should be trying to get religions away from having any influence on state and schools not encouraging the state to start funding more religions who are even less forward thinking than the ones we had

The idea that an influx of Muslims is going to drag us backwards is just (unlikely) hypothesis, though. A bit of a distraction when we are currently, obviously and demonstrably, being dragged backwards by an uprising of 50+ year old white people who want to reverse the clock to the mid 20th century when women, to be honest, still weren't being treated particularly well and life was a nightmare for any sort of minority or non-conformist.

It just bewilders me that people are so busy looking to the middle east in absolute horror thinking that an influx of "strange cultures" from thousands of miles away are going to "change our way of life", and our media is so busy reporting on just that, that the very real, current and threatening revival of European fascism much closer to home is going almost completely un-noticed. Subtly in countries like ours (including Ireland and Scotland, sadly) but also quite openly and obviously in Eastern Europe. People are just ignoring it. The "never again" mantra from WWII has been proven to be almost hilarious levels of hot air. No one seems to give a **** that it's happening again.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The idea that an influx of Muslims is going to drag us backwards is just (unlikely) hypothesis, though. A bit of a distraction when we are currently, obviously and demonstrably, being dragged backwards by an uprising of 50+ year old white people who want to reverse the clock to the mid 20th century when women, to be honest, still weren't being treated particularly well and life was a nightmare for any sort of minority or non-conformist.

It just bewilders me that people are so busy looking to the middle east in absolute horror thinking that an influx of "strange cultures" from thousands of miles away are going to "change our way of life", and our media is so busy reporting on just that, that the very real, current and threatening revival of European fascism much closer to home is going almost completely un-noticed. Subtly in countries like ours (including Ireland and Scotland, sadly) but also quite openly and obviously in Eastern Europe. People are just ignoring it. The "never again" mantra from WWII has been proven to be almost hilarious levels of hot air. No one seems to give a **** that it's happening again.

I do understand what you're saying and I agree with you but I also agree with myself in that I will never demand that any religion get rights to state funds etc it's probably a bit different in the UK because religion didn't have as much of a strangle hold within the law but here we're still trying to get that s**t out of state and school so trying to get another religion recognised would be damaging to this objective imo

But at the same time I do agree with what you're saying too

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The idea that an influx of Muslims is going to drag us backwards is just (unlikely) hypothesis, though. A bit of a distraction when we are currently, obviously and demonstrably, being dragged backwards by an uprising of 50+ year old white people who want to reverse the clock to the mid 20th century when women, to be honest, still weren't being treated particularly well and life was a nightmare for any sort of minority or non-conformist.

It just bewilders me that people are so busy looking to the middle east in absolute horror thinking that an influx of "strange cultures" from thousands of miles away are going to "change our way of life", and our media is so busy reporting on just that, that the very real, current and threatening revival of European fascism much closer to home is going almost completely un-noticed. Subtly in countries like ours (including Ireland and Scotland, sadly) but also quite openly and obviously in Eastern Europe. People are just ignoring it. The "never again" mantra from WWII has been proven to be almost hilarious levels of hot air. No one seems to give a **** that it's happening again.

It bewilders me that the oppression of women and girls on that scale is so acceptable to some people in the name of a fantasy deity that men decide to speak for.
How do you manage to confuse that with racism?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It bewilders me that the oppression of women and girls on that scale is so acceptable to some people in the name of a fantasy deity that men decide to speak for.
How do you manage to confuse that with racism?

I don't think anyone is defending men who oppress women. What they are defending are womens rights. If we make false blanket statements that all Muslim women are oppressed and therefore we should ban the burka, we are unintentionally oppressing the women who are not abused and who choose to wear that garment.

Muslims are guilty of carrying out more FGM than any other religion but along the African continent, Christians also carry out this practice along with none religious tribes who see it as tradition; so if we want to fight such barbarities we can't just concentrate on Muslim populations.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I don't think anyone is defending men who oppress women. What they are defending are womens rights. If we make false blanket statements that all Muslim women are oppressed and therefore we should ban the burka, we are unintentionally oppressing the women who are not abused and who choose to wear that garment.

Muslims are guilty of carrying out more FGM than any other religion but along the African continent, Christians also carry out this practice along with none religious tribes who see it as tradition; so if we want to fight such barbarities we can't just concentrate on Muslim populations.

Where did I say only one religion had issues?

There are no women's rights in the Muslim faith.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It bewilders me that the oppression of women and girls on that scale is so acceptable to some people in the name of a fantasy deity that men decide to speak for.
How do you manage to confuse that with racism?

Because it implies that the majority of Muslims are the "stereotypical tabloid muslim" which is, simply, false. The vast majority of Muslims don't "oppress their women and girls" any more than any other group. That's pretty much standard in the definition of racism, isn't it? Believing negative stereotypes?

Secondly it all plays into the hysteria that "so many Muslims are pouring in!!!" that it's in any way likely to significantly alter the status quo of the whole country. Which is just nonsensical. Especially when - as I said - the fastest growing group is in fact the non-religious.

Thirdly, the worrying trend recently for backwards thinking, and the very real resurgence in active fascism in countries much closer to home, IS an active and ongoing threat to "our values and way of life" but no one seems to care. Too distracted by the scary brown people, I suppose.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because it implies that the majority of Muslims are the "stereotypical tabloid muslim" which is, simply, false. The vast majority of Muslims don't "oppress their women and girls" any more than any other group. That's pretty much standard in the definition of racism, isn't it? Believing negative stereotypes?

Secondly it all plays into the hysteria that "so many Muslims are pouring in!!!" that it's in any way likely to significantly alter the status quo of the whole country. Which is just nonsensical. Especially when - as I said - the fastest growing group is in fact the non-religious.

Thirdly, the worrying trend recently for backwards thinking, and the very real resurgence in active fascism in countries much closer to home, IS an active and ongoing threat to "our values and way of life" but no one seems to care. Too distracted by the scary brown people, I suppose.

Aren't religions which promote an idealogy from over a thousand years ago, when women were considered property all oppressive?

Is not the covering of a woman, because she will incite men to desire not a serious oppression of women?

How many female Imams are there in mainstream Islam? How many female roman catholic cardinals?

Again with the brown people. You seem to have much more of an issue with peoples colour than I do.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think we're pretty quick to forget, though, that Christians / Westerners didn't treat women (or homosexuals, or ethnic minorities) all that differently less than a century ago... and really no differently at all 150 years ago (the whole thing, from rights, to how much flesh women were allowed to show). The entire world doesn't, and never has, progressed at a uniform rate. We move on, and then are outraged when the rest of the world - which has not had the same time nor opportunity to culturally develop - is not on exactly the same page at exactly the same time.

And that's without even going into the horrible reality that we currently seem to be majorly back-sliding.

I've highlighted the operative phrase. It's a backward thinking religion that treats women like second class citizens, sell off female children as brides, kill women they think offend the family etc. etc. etc...... and I don't want it spreading until they can address that.

Lumping Islam in with other religions that have evolved to be inclusive of women... even if that inclusion isn't perfect yet... is offensive. But then. religious people are allowed to be targeted because people who don't believe can't understand them.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've highlighted the operative phrase. It's a backward thinking religion that treats women like second class citizens, sell off female children as brides, kill women they think offend the family etc. etc. etc...... and I don't want it spreading until they can address that.

Lumping Islam in with other religions that have evolved to be inclusive of women... even if that inclusion isn't perfect yet... is offensive. But then. religious people are allowed to be targeted because people who don't believe can't understand them.

I think for me the problem is more about religion creating rules for people to live by, often rules that include what amounts to child trafficking, cruelty, abuse, leaving women stuck in miserable lives with no recourse to escape, as you mention in your first para. Many religions seem to think that we have not progressed a thousand years and do not belong in the modern world.

Where religion doesn't interfere and gives comfort and attempts to modernise then it isn't an issue though I agree I do not particularly understand faith.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've highlighted the operative phrase. It's a backward thinking religion that treats women like second class citizens, sell off female children as brides, kill women they think offend the family etc. etc. etc...... and I don't want it spreading until they can address that.

Lumping Islam in with other religions that have evolved to be inclusive of women... even if that inclusion isn't perfect yet... is offensive. But then. religious people are allowed to be targeted because people who don't believe can't understand them.

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

Again here we have the premise that if you are not religious you are a non believer which is totally wrong.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

An belief/idea is not a fact and therefore open to criticism. Stop trying to close down criticism of dictorial religions. It is not your right to do so.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

An belief/idea is not a fact and therefore open to criticism. Stop trying to close down criticism of dictorial religions. It is not your right to do so.

This is a debate forum, I have every right to speak as I find. You are under no obligation to respond.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

Again here we have the premise that if you are not religious you are a non believer which is totally wrong.

How is that an islamaphobic comment? Livia has a faith, she is speaking about the attitudes of non believers to those of faith. I think you owe her an apology.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

How is that an islamaphobic comment? Livia has a faith, she is speaking about the attitudes of non believers to those of faith. I think you owe her an apology.

I'm sure that is obvious to most, if Livia requires clarification I'm sure she'll ask. You needed police my comments.

It is based on an assumption that non religious are also non believers, no apology is necessary.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm sure that is obvious to most, if Livia requires clarification I'm sure she'll ask. You needed police my comments.

It is based on an assumption that non religious are also non believers, no apology is necessary.

It's been mentioned enough times for me to notice. I'd call out anyone who said the same thing.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

Again here we have the premise that if you are not religious you are a non believer which is totally wrong.

A made up word, to creep blasphemy laws back into the West.

If you are a non-believer, then why would you believe in that word?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Alf

A made up word, to creep blasphemy laws back into the West.

If you are a non-believer, then why would you believe in that word?

Islamophobic, and hate-crimes are made up words that don't mean anything? Careful, Alf.. A pattern is starting to emerge.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Withano

Islamophobic, and hate-crimes are made up words that don't mean anything? Careful, Alf.. A pattern is starting to emerge.

Do you believe there should be blasphemy laws?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

A made up word, to creep blasphemy laws back into the West.

If you are a non-believer, then why would you believe in that word?

We have hate laws... Are they not good enough?

For the 20th time I am NOT a non believer :/

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

We have hate laws... Are they not good enough?

For the 20th time I am NOT a non believer :/

What are you then?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

We have hate laws... Are they not good enough?

For the 20th time I am NOT a non believer :/

These hate laws, is it just certain things you're not allowed to hate, or are you not allowed to hate anything at all?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You do realise this is an Islamophobic comment don't you? Every religion has it's fundamentalists, even yours.

Again here we have the premise that if you are not religious you are a non believer which is totally wrong.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

This is a debate forum, I have every right to speak as I find. You are under no obligation to respond.

Ahhh right. I was told that I was accused of Islamaphobia while I was away. And of course, Kissy is the oracle of whatis, and what isn't, Islamaphobic... because she.... no, remind me why again?

I would remind you that Islamic terrorist were responsible for the death of my husband so my judgement against Islamic terrorists is coloured. Also, I've just returned from Israel where Islamic Palastinians threw a party after the Manchester bomb killed and maimed children. Balancing that out, I don't accept that all Muslims are terrorists, not at all. It's a fact though, that right now, all terrorists are Muslim.

So thanks for the baiting... it made me laugh out loud it was so cynical and expected.