[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Here here,people just cant wait until we know the details,all they are interested in is mud slinging and scoring points,I would say it had been refurbished so obviously was't being neglected,there would be MANY people who will have to answer questions here as to what went wrong here,there are so many people we could blame but that fire hasn't gone cold yet and people are making it political,we could also blame the fridge manufacturer,the electrics,the lack of fire alarms,the lack of sprinklers,the cladding,so many things,people are human and will make mistakes ,that happens in all walks of life,lets find these people first ,then start the blame game.And yes MTVN,it was council owned,but they may have sub-let

As has been pointed out, it was refurbished with the cladding to make it look more appealing in the surrounding area. Gentrification in action.

The people who are making it political are the residents. Both before the fire, and after. They get to decide if now is the right time to be speaking out about it, and they have been. When repeated requests and pleas are ignored - and the company can send an email demanding that a blog be taken down purely for the protection of their own public image - serious questions need to be asked about the priorities of our society, because it seems to be profit over people. Capitalism in action.

With the exception of the fridge manufacturer all of the other things you listed can be explicitly traced back to the government. The state has a responsibility to ensure that housing regulations are being enforced and adhered to - and that legislation is sufficient and nuanced enough so as to ensure the safety of residents.

This incident is completely political. These events don't exist in a vacuum.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

We will know in due course why and how this happened and I expect it will prove that there has been failures at every level of government from both political parties stretching back years.The PM has already announced there will be a full and independent public enquiry so why the rush to regurgitate articles from a year ago about a proposed amendment to a housing bill as if this never would have happened if that amendment had passed. There seems to have been an almost giddiness in some circles to attribute blame as quickly as possible and paint it as Tories 100% at fault, Labour not at all. That's why all those articles that you have posted have gone viral and shared madly by Corbyn friendly journalists and websites but not many have been so keen to discuss times when Labour governments have loosened regulations and ignored concerns.

[Kizzy]

What is this... punishment for not keeping the tories in Kensington?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7791726.html

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What is this... punishment for not keeping the tories in Kensington?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7791726.html

It could have been a security risk,it could have been any reason tbh,no need to jump to the concluson she DIDN'T want to talk to them,she may well do it in her own time,but I grant you this is an ideal time to Tory bash,but people need to remember those tower blocks go back years, Corbyn,didn't meet survivors either he went to meet local residents and of course reporters.

[Ammi]

..I can completely understand why this has turned to 'politics' and anger so quickly, I mean it's just so unspeakably awful and for anyone involved directly in any way at all...(until those answers they need, do come... all of their emotions have to have a direction, so yeah anger...)...there is an accountability and that accountability may include one body or government or more than one and all will have to answer to their responsibility for the loss of those lives and the loss of those homes...I've been thinking about this constantly since it happened like most of us have and really do feel that it emphasises so much the divide of the 'haves' and the 'have not's'...I mean, what strikes me with this sought of devastation is how much it brings out a community of people all doing what they can to help..people like Leon....the very best of people because people are good, intrinsically good and they're good no matter what their political leaning, I meant that doesn't even come into it...they see suffering, they feel suffering so they help, they do what they can and what they're able to...those who don't have much themselves even because they see that the needs of others are more....I wonder what thoughts Theresa May had when she stepped into her home last night ...could she not have given a room/some rooms to some who were only given aa sport's hall for the night after what they had been through...I mean heck, why do we have a Royal family if they can't help in times like this...what is it...over 50 bedrooms and yet not for anyone in devastation at losing their home in such a way or all of those empty London hotel rooms that could have been offered...wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have a government leader who would actually offer personal help when that personal help is needed but it's only ever offered by the 'normal' people../the general public...so many others who are in a position to help...(and may actually bear some responsibility..).. just closing their just closing their door to the nightmare, not wanting to get too close to actually live any of it themselves....yeah, anger and I really can't blame that anger at all/this country for sure is pretty screwed up...oh and I read that when Theresa May visited Grenfell Tower, he didn't even speak to any of the residents still agonising over those who are missing from human being to human being and having lost everything they own...she didn't even think them worthy of talking to...?....pffffft, whether she was Conservative/Labour or whatever party...as a human being she falls very, very short in every way.....

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

It could have been a security risk,it could have been any reason tbh,no need to jump to the concluson she DIDN'T want to talk to them,she may well do it in her own time,but I grant you this is an ideal time to Tory bash,but people need to remember those tower blocks go back years, Corbyn,didn't meet survivors either he went to meet local residents and of course reporters.

I admire her for not inviting the press and keeping it private.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by MTVN

We will know in due course why and how this happened and I expect it will prove that there has been failures at every level of government from both political parties stretching back years.The PM has already announced there will be a full and independent public enquiry so why the rush to regurgitate articles from a year ago about a proposed amendment to a housing bill as if this never would have happened if that amendment had passed. There seems to have been an almost giddiness in some circles to attribute blame as quickly as possible and paint it as Tories 100% at fault, Labour not at all. That's why all those articles that you have posted have gone viral and shared madly by Corbyn friendly journalists and websites but not many have been so keen to discuss times when Labour governments have loosened regulations and ignored concerns.

Well I'm not one of them. As I said, I do not blindly follow a political party - and if there were legislation introduced under Labour governments that failed to prevent this incident from occurring, then the party and ministers of the time must also burden some of the responsibility. I realise deregulation and privatisation in a lot of sectors began under the last Labour government, and I have and will always condemn it wholeheartedly. Also, I'm really not convinced that a public inquiry would actually alter what I believe to be true - that the Tories will never, ever be condemned for anything by their supporters. Only time will tell, but I'd be willing to wager now that if any responsibility is found to be laid at the feet of a Conservative minister and/or policy, the excuses will come in thick and fast. I would not for a minute try to suggest that certain people on the left aren't ridiculously dogmatic in their support for Corbyn and the Labour Party, but from my perception at least, it seems on here that it's actually Tories who are far more tribal. I just find the whole thing bizarre, because sometimes government policy is culpable for tragedies, and there's no getting away from that.

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Do you have any response to my post or are emoticons the order of the day?

[Kizzy]

I can bash all I want her response was pathetic.. security risk my arse, she just cannot and will not communicate with the public on any level.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I can completely understand why this has turned to 'politics' and anger so quickly, I mean it's just so unspeakably awful and for anyone involved directly in any way at all...(until those answers they need, do come... all of their emotions have to have a direction, so yeah anger...)...there is an accountability and that accountability may include one body or government or more than one and all will have to answer to their responsibility for the loss of those lives and the loss of those homes...I've been thinking about this constantly since it happened like most of us have and really do feel that it emphasises so much the divide of the 'haves' and the 'have not's'...I mean, what strikes me with this sought of devastation is how much it brings out a community of people all doing what they can to help..people like Leon....the very best of people because people are good, intrinsically good and they're good no matter what their political leaning, I meant that doesn't even come into it...they see suffering, they feel suffering so they help, they do what they can and what they're able to...those who don't have much themselves even because they see that the needs of others are more....I wonder what thoughts Theresa May had when she stepped into her home last night ...could she not have given a room/some rooms to some who were only given aa sport's hall for the night after what they had been through...I mean heck, why do we have a Royal family if they can't help in times like this...what is it...over 50 bedrooms and yet not for anyone in devastation at losing their home in such a way or all of those empty London hotel rooms that could have been offered...wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have a government leader who would actually offer personal help when that personal help is needed but it's only ever offered by the 'normal' people../the general public...so many others who are in a position to help...(and may actually bear some responsibility..).. just closing their just closing their door to the nightmare, not wanting to get too close to actually live any of it themselves....yeah, anger and I really can't blame that anger at all/this country for sure is pretty screwed up...oh and I read that when Theresa May visited Grenfell Tower, he didn't even speak to any of the residents still agonising over those who are missing from human being to human being and having lost everything they own...she didn't even think them worthy of talking to...?....pffffft, whether she was Conservative/Labour or whatever party...as a human being she falls very, very short in every way.....

She was probably advised not to yet,we dont know,I doubt very much she would snub them personally,she could have been mobbed or it could have caused all sorts of problems,she was right at this time imo,to keep a low profile.

[DemolitionRed]

Jeremy Corbyn: Empty homes owned by rich should be 'requisitioned' for Grenfell Tower residents http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...oned-grenfell/

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

She was probably advised not to yet,we dont know,I doubt very much she would snub them personally,she could have been mobbed or it could have caused all sorts of problems,she was right at this time imo,to keep a low profile.

Mobbed? What for....for being so phenomenally strong and stable? :/

[Brother Leon]

Corbyn and Khan both went up to residents and volunteers today. I saw them both. Corbyn was received warmly from people and thanked for coming. Khan was heckled a lot and was met with anger, but he handled it well generally. May had a police escort and spent her time with some firefighters as police blocked off access to them. She received a lot of yelling and asked why she won't "come to our side for once" and chants of "Weak Weak Weak" etc.

I'm not even in much of a mood for discussing how poor she is, but a leader would have at least spent a damn minute with the local community and praised them for their spirit and offered their condolences. Don't care how much she likes to be private, it's a part of leading. Look at Khan, he was booed and heckled at first from anger, but by the time he left he was applauded and thanked.

[smudgie]

Wow at McDonnell going to the unions to urge them to mobilise a million people to march in London to get Mrs May to stand down.
Sour grapes that she beat them again.

[storybrooke]

My thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected by this tragedy

[arista]

SkyNewsHD has rented a Balcony
up high
on the nearby other tower
over looking the burnt tower

[arista]

[arista]

[Kizzy]

Excellent article here regarding 'regulation', 'red tape' cutting and 'health and safety' those words are usually said with scorn as they represent some hold ups for business,they were removed and guess what?...it killed people.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-deregulation

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Then she would need to be held accountable too, and if she played any major role she should resign and a by-election should be held. You know, people on the left are often accused of blindly supporting their cause and their party and never admitting when they've failed or could do things better, yet certainly in my case I condemn(ed) the Iraq War totally, understand that many of the worst examples of privatisation of public services began under the last Labour government, have not always been confident in Jeremy's leadership, think he needs to be clearer on his condemnation of the IRA, etc etc. And it just seems to me like no matter what the Tories do, literally anything, they will never, ever, ever, ever be held accountable, criticised or asked questions of by their supporters. No political party or politician is perfect (or wholly awful, to be fair), and they shouldn't be treated as such.

All those dead and all you want is a resignation.

[Cherie]

Shameful that the outside was tarted up but safety ignored, in truth there probably would have been fewer if no fatalities without the cladding as the fire wouldn't have taken hold, it's desperately sad

[JTM45]

Originally Posted by parmnion

All those dead and all you want is a resignation.

Definitely not ''all'' that's wanted but May's resignation would be a good start. About time she made herself accountable to someone other than those 'poor' Tory MP's who's seats she lost for them.

[Kazanne]

On the news now,In 1999 Labour were in power and asked about safety of these tower blocks and nothing was done and seems it has just gone on and on, seems there will be a few to 'blame' in this.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by parmnion

All those dead and all you want is a resignation.

James O'Brian LBC radio-
Politicising The Grenfell Tower Fire Is Crucial. If you don't think this is already political, absolutely, irredeemably and completely political, then I'm afraid you inhabit a planet I do not recognize.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenter...-james-obrien/

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

James O'Brian LBC radio-
Politicising The Grenfell Tower Fire Is Crucial. If you don't think this is already political, absolutely, irredeemably and completely political, then I'm afraid you inhabit a planet I do not recognize.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenter...-james-obrien/

Job is a champagne socialist troll and no one apart from his band of radical left wing apologists takes him seriously

[user104658]

If the US deemed this stuff unsafe for use on high rise buildings... then it's not even a matter of "safety tests should have been done". They knew it wasn't safe for use in high rise buildings. Obviously an official investigation needs to be done but it seems pretty clear that it's the cladding, specifically, that turned a small everyday domestic fire into a whole building going up like a box of matches. How was it every approved? How many high-rise buildings in the UK are covered in it?