[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I guess the mens/disabled is just a single toilet rather than a shared bathroom

Even in that case though, a disabled loo should be separate as...well able bodied people aren't meant to use disabled loos.

I do not understand why they didn't just make one gender neutral, and the other disabled, if they are going to let men into the womens anyway (which I do agree with, with post-op trans people only) Would make much more sense

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Because...disabled women exist too? Who would not be comfortable at all going into the mens loo.

If it was disabled/women's though it would be the same problem, disabled men using the same toilet as women. Although like MTVN said it's probably just a single toilet if it's kitted out for disabled access so it shouldn't be a problem anyway?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

If it was disabled/women's though it would be the same problem, disabled men using the same toilet as women. Although like MTVN said it's probably just a single toilet if it's kitted out for disabled access so it shouldn't be a problem anyway?

which is why, if they are making the loos gender neutral, they should have had the disabled one separate.

Also a man is more likely to be comfortable going into the womens loos than vice versa. Most women are nervous in isolated situations with strange men. Hell even most transmen I have read about do not want to use the mens loos for fear of being attacked. I am not a man so don't know this for sure, but according to male friends its not scary to go into a place full of women, though apparently it would maybe be embarrassing.

But yeah, even with all of that said, disabled loos should always be separate if there is the option to do that. Which there clearly is in this case. Change the door sign to disabled only. And allow the men and women in the womens together, which is what they are doing anyway.

[King Gizzard]

it legitimises her being a woman now so it doesn't offend me, no

[Eddie.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I don't think it's offensive, but I don't think it's funny either.

.

[Nicky91]

no, not offensive i think

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

which is why, if they are making the loos gender neutral, they should have had the disabled one separate.

Also a man is more likely to be comfortable going into the womens loos than vice versa. Most women are nervous in isolated situations with strange men. Hell even most transmen I have read about do not want to use the mens loos for fear of being attacked. I am not a man so don't know this for sure, but according to male friends its not scary to go into a place full of women, though apparently it would maybe be embarrassing.

But yeah, even with all of that said, disabled loos should always be separate if there is the option to do that. Which there clearly is in this case. Change the door sign to disabled only. And allow the men and women in the womens together, which is what they are doing anyway.

My point though wasn't that disabled men might be uncomfortable using the women's loo, it was that the women you've described might have a problem with them doing that, so the result would still be men and women sharing a loo whichever way round it is.
Personally I think loos should be gender neutral and in this case what you've suggested would be best, having one gender neutral and one disabled. But a lot of people would have a problem with that too (I'd imagine more women would feel uncomfortable about that than how it is now) which is probably why they've done it this way. Whether they changed it to one gender neutral and one disabled, or switched it to female/disabled and male, or kept it how it is, men and women will be sharing a loo regardless. But if the problem is that some women are uncomfortable sharing with men, this set up is surely the best of those options as less women will be affected?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

My point though wasn't that disabled men might be uncomfortable using the women's loo, it was that the women you've described might have a problem with them doing that, so the result would still be men and women sharing a loo whichever way round it is.
Personally I think loos should be gender neutral and in this case what you've suggested would be best, having one gender neutral and one disabled. But a lot of people would have a problem with that too (I'd imagine more women would feel uncomfortable about that than how it is now) which is probably why they've done it this way. Whether they changed it to one gender neutral and one disabled, or switched it to female/disabled and male, or kept it how it is, men and women will be sharing a loo regardless. But if the problem is that some women are uncomfortable sharing with men, this set up is surely the best of those options as less women will be affected?

Ahh right I see Yeah didn't think of it that way round

Should still be a disabled and a gender neutral though. Disabled people are less able to wait (generalizing obviously, not every single disabled person) which is why I also have a huge issue with able bodied people using disabled loos in general, totally ignoring the other issues

I would personally be happy for all loos to be gender neutral in the years to come. As long as they are proper stalls, ceiling to floor rather than the pitiful things we have now where sometimes you can see the other person.

How would more women have an issue and be affected by it being neutral and disabled though? I don't get that? Looks like the womens is already neutral? Might be totally missing the point again though like just now

[thesheriff443]

So its him before on the mens toilet and her after on the ladies toilet?

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Ahh right I see Yeah didn't think of it that way round

Should still be a disabled and a gender neutral though. Disabled people are less able to wait (generalizing obviously, not every single disabled person) which is why I also have a huge issue with able bodied people using disabled loos in general, totally ignoring the other issues

I would personally be happy for all loos to be gender neutral in the years to come. As long as they are proper stalls, ceiling to floor rather than the pitiful things we have now where sometimes you can see the other person.

How would more women have an issue and be affected by it being neutral and disabled though? I don't get that? Looks like the womens is already neutral? Might be totally missing the point again though like just now

Another reason why it's better to have it merged with the mens rather than the womens haha


I meant by that that if it was gender neutral and disabled, then all able bodied women would be affected (in having to share with men), whereas in this case only disabled women are affected. (I'm not saying disabled women's feelings are less important, I'm just talking purely about numbers, and that if they're trying to please the most people - which they probably are with them being a business, then this way would make sense. If some people are going to feel uncomfortable regardless, then have it so as few people feel uncomfortable as possible.) The way it currently is, the womens isn't neutral.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Another reason why it's better to have it merged with the mens rather than the womens haha


I meant by that that if it was gender neutral and disabled, then all able bodied women would be affected (in having to share with men), whereas in this case only disabled women are affected. (I'm not saying disabled women's feelings are less important, I'm just talking purely about numbers, and that if they're trying to please the most people - which they probably are with them being a business, then this way would make sense. If some people are going to feel uncomfortable regardless, then have it so as few people feel uncomfortable as possible.) The way it currently is, the womens isn't neutral.

But it is? Its neutral anyway, so making it neutral and disabled makes no difference to the women, as currently its neutral anyway going by the door pics anyway. Except that disabled people would get their own space.

[MTVN]

But is it offensive to have a pic of an able bodied athlete on a disabled loo

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But is it offensive to have a pic of an able bodied athlete on a disabled loo

Hadn't thought of that actually. A lot of disabilities are invisible I guess, but Jenner didn't have any disabilities as far as I know :S

Hasn't been thought through well at all tbh. The rush to be 'inclusive' has clouded judgements I think

I think its all a publicity stunt anyway. And its clearly working. Though...it would help the business if people knew where it actually was. All publicity is good publicity, apparently

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But is it offensive to have a pic of an able bodied athlete on a disabled loo

great point, but then they would have to squeeze in an able bodied male sports, plus a disabled male and female disabled sports person, I think they need to return to the drawing board

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But it is? Its neutral anyway, so making it neutral and disabled makes no difference to the women, as currently its neutral anyway going by the door pics anyway. Except that disabled people would get their own space.

I'm confused The womens is just a women's, it's the mens that's neutral (inclusive of men and disabled women)?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I'm confused The womens is just a women's, it's the mens that's neutral (inclusive of men and disabled women)?

Depends how you define women really. Woman is adult human female to me.

We always end up going round in circles on these threads as our views seem to be polar opposites

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But is it offensive to have a pic of an able bodied athlete on a disabled loo

I don't think so in this case. It's just that they wanted to use pictures of Caitlyn/Bruce and that's what she was famous for when she was Bruce. Both pictures represent her at her peak of fame/public recognition (but as different genders obviously) to make their statement easily recognisable, I think most people would see that. If it was different pictures and so it wasnt obviously Caitlyn/Bruce then there wouldn't be much point in them doing it.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I don't think so in this case. It's just that they wanted to use pictures of Caitlyn/Bruce and that's what she was famous for when she was Bruce. Both pictures represent her at her peak of fame/public recognition (but as different genders obviously) to make their statement easily recognisable, I think most people would see that. If it was different pictures and so it wasnt obviously Caitlyn/Bruce then there wouldn't be much point in them doing it.

Which is why its so very obviously a publicity stunt tbh.

Working very well, going by how viral it seems to have gone. Definitely got people talking, at least.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Depends how you define women really. Woman is adult human female to me.

We always end up going round in circles on these threads as our views seem to be polar opposites

Ah I see what you mean, because it's inclusive of transsexual women it makes it neutral? Yeah I think we just disagree on that tbh I still see that as being female only.

[MTVN]

Didn't realise that was Bruce pre-Caitlin actually, thought it was just a random athlete lol

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Ah I see what you mean, because it's inclusive of transsexual women it makes it neutral? Yeah I think we just disagree on that tbh I still see that as being female only.

Not really...as post-op transsexual women I do agree should be in the womens.

Its when we go a little deeper than that, and it becomes 'but you are asking people to have surgery to use the female loos' and such, where it becomes an issue for me.

Post-op fine
Pre-op not

But this then turns to what I said above...with the logical conclusion to that argument being 'anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman'. Which I totally disagree with as female is just a biological state. You cannot identify your way into or out of it tbh

Minefield. But glad it can finally be actually talked about as this time last year there would have been cries of 'transphobia' for even me saying 'adult human female'

[Crimson Dynamo]

if you cut a glory hole in her mouth and did what the hole was intended for then i guess people would be like "ew gross"

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if you cut a glory hole in her mouth and did what the hole was intended for then i guess people would be like "ew gross"

You must be having a boring sunday afternoon.

[thesheriff443]

Most people would not realise or care that its the same person, I'm not offended

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Not really...as post-op transsexual women I do agree should be in the womens.

Its when we go a little deeper than that, and it becomes 'but you are asking people to have surgery to use the female loos' and such, where it becomes an issue for me.

Post-op fine
Pre-op not

But this then turns to what I said above...with the logical conclusion to that argument being 'anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman'. Which I totally disagree with as female is just a biological state. You cannot identify your way into or out of it tbh

Minefield. But glad it can finally be actually talked about as this time last year there would have been cries of 'transphobia' for even me saying 'adult human female'

I don't understand then what you mean about the womens currently being neutral? Because Caitlyn is post-op and there's the traditional women's sign next to the door.