[Vicky.]

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/s...66703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/s...66703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

A 19 year-old twat. I think he lives somewhere far away.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/s...66703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

I'd assume that she means she wants to be considered a woman, because she feels like she is one and always been one. Or possibly that she wants to go through reassignment surgery. I don't know. I find it really hard to believe that anyone would put themselves through what transgender people go through on a whim. A tweet probably isn't the best form of communicating something so complex, or understanding what it is that makes a transgender person the way they are.

I've been reading a lot more recently both sides of the transgender/feminism debate because in all honesty I've never really seen them as being that connected, but seeing the strong opinions in here they obviously are, but what I don't really get is, what is it that is being taken away from women by allowing a transwoman to be considered a woman? I understand the arguments that they won't have experienced sexism and womens issues to the extent of women who were born female, but what actual rights are being taken away from women by including transwomen in that? That's something I can't find an answer to. I suppose you could say in this example it's the fact that a transwoman has a job that should have gone to a 'real' woman, but I still wouldn't see that as a right being taken away from women, as long as those women also had the opportunity to apply for the role. In terms of 'rights' they still would have been allowed to apply and carry it out had they been given it.
I've also been reading a bit about intersectional feminism and I wonder if feminism progressing to include transwomen is just the natural course of things as they become more accepted in society? I don't know though, I'd be interested to know what others think about that.

From the stuff I've read I think that the main crux of this debate comes down to whether or not you believe that gender identity is real, and that's where it's difficult because it's not something tangible and it's different in different people. Some people have no feelings relating to their gender, but for some people to go to the extent of having painful surgeries because of it, face mockery and insults because of it, kill themselves because of it, it surely has to exist and be overwhelming for some people. And even biological sex can be more complicated than just male/female. We know that intersex people exist (I know you said in the OP you didn't want to discuss intersex because of the small numbers of them, even though apparently there's actually more intersex people than there are transgender people but I'd say it's relevant given how so many people equate gender to biological sex, but just the fact that intersex people exist, regardless of numbers, shows that it isn't that straight forward a thing.)

Anyway, if gender identity is real (which I believe it is, it just doesn't manifest the way it does for transgender people in the same way it does everyone else, or at all in most people) then is it really so bad for them to want the rest of society to regard them in the way they identify? Is that imposing an ideology or isn't it just natural, we all want people to view us as the person we feel that we are? Most of us just don't have to even think about that because it happens naturally. And is their inclusion within the group that they identify with really taking anything away from the people currently in that group? That's something I'm really keen to understand. I don't personally feel that a transman takes anything away from me being a man but I appreciate it's probably different for women because of feminism which is why I'm asking.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i want to be a smurf, i am a smurf, i've always been a smurf

Smurfs don't have any genitals, it's probably a simpler existence tbh so good luck to you!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I've been reading a lot more recently both sides of the transgender/feminism debate because in all honesty I've never really seen them as being that connected, but seeing the strong opinions in here they obviously are, but what I don't really get is, what is it that is being taken away from women by allowing a transwoman to be considered a woman? I understand the arguments that they won't have experienced sexism and womens issues to the extent of women who were born female, but what actual rights are being taken away from women by including transwomen in that? That's something I can't find an answer to.

Generally the problem feminists have with it is the loss of women only spaces. Such as loos, prisons, sport, etc. Stuff that was fought for for hundreds of years.

Men lose their male spaces too. But it does not seem that there are loads of transmen lining up wanting into male areas. So it doesn't really affect men to the same extent at the moment.

The main problem I have with it all is the loss of sex segregation tbh. As I see segregation as very much needed (in certain areas anyway). If I wasn't expected to parrot the lie that you actually can change sex and if men weren't trying to force their way into female areas, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. Of course there is an added problem of anytime anyone says anything besides 'biology is totally irrelevant and is a social construct' they are hit with rape and death threats too (I have had 3 this week so far, people keep trying to show me how 'womanly' they are by threatening me with their girlcock. Hmm), which doesn't help tensions at all. I also think its important that language continue to actually make sense, so including male people in the meaning of 'woman' is a bit daft. Hence 'transwoman'. Not the same as women, and ridiculous to claim they are the same. I know people mean well when they say 'transwomen are women' and such, but at least think a little bit about what you are saying. Woman has a meaning, if woman includes men, then woman suddenly means 'person' instead, and we already have a word for person

I also think gender identity is such a load of crap. Maybe my opinion is clouded on that because I personally do not have one and am not religious so don't believe in some mysterious inner essence or whatever. But everyone should be able to dress however the hell they like..but I won't pretend that someone putting on a dress makes them an actual woman I think thats just lazy stereotyping. And besides stereotypes, I don't see what 'trans' is at all. I used to think it was people who had sex dysphoria and felt they did not fit in their bodies, similar to BDD. But 'born in the wrong body' is transphopbic these days. thus I cannot understand what makes modern day transwomen (as opposed to transsexuals) any different from any other man...except for what they want to wear :S

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Anyway, if gender identity is real (which I believe it is, it just doesn't manifest the way it does for transgender people in the same way it does everyone else, or at all in most people) then is it really so bad for them to want the rest of society to regard them in the way they identify? Is that imposing an ideology or isn't it just natural, we all want people to view us as the person we feel that we are? Most of us just don't have to even think about that because it happens naturally. And is their inclusion within the group that they identify with really taking anything away from the people currently in that group? That's something I'm really keen to understand. I don't personally feel that a transman takes anything away from me being a man but I appreciate it's probably different for women because of feminism which is why I'm asking.

Well that depends entirely on if you believe male and female are real distinct categories, and if sex segregation is needed doesn't it..

I went into what rights are being taken away above. There is not that much of a clash with 'trans rights' and 'womens rights', but the areas they do clash, its very important and the activists are just getting more and more violent in trying to silence any woman ( real or trans, transsexuals are being silenced also in the name of 'transgender') who speaks up.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Generally the problem feminists have with it is the loss of women only spaces. Such as loos, prisons, sport, etc. Stuff that was fought for for hundreds of years.

Men lose their male spaces too. But it does not seem that there are loads of transmen lining up wanting into male areas. So it doesn't really affect men to the same extent at the moment.

The main problem I have with it all is the loss of sex segregation tbh. As I see segregation as very much needed (in certain areas anyway). If I wasn't expected to parrot the lie that you actually can change sex and if men weren't trying to force their way into female areas, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. Of course there is an added problem of anytime anyone says anything besides 'biology is totally irrelevant and is a social construct' they are hit with rape and death threats too (I have had 3 this week so far, people keep trying to show me how 'womanly' they are by threatening me with their girlcock. Hmm), which doesn't help tensions at all. I also think its important that language continue to actually make sense, so including male people in the meaning of 'woman' is a bit daft. Hence 'transwoman'. Not the same as women, and ridiculous to claim they are the same. I know people mean well when they say 'transwomen are women' and such, but at least think a little bit about what you are saying. Woman has a meaning, if woman includes men, then woman suddenly means 'person' instead, and we already have a word for person

I also think gender identity is such a load of crap. Maybe my opinion is clouded on that because I personally do not have one and am not religious so don't believe in some mysterious inner essence or whatever. But everyone should be able to dress however the hell they like..but I won't pretend that someone putting on a dress makes them an actual woman I think thats just lazy stereotyping. And besides stereotypes, I don't see what 'trans' is at all. I used to think it was people who had sex dysphoria and felt they did not fit in their bodies, similar to BDD. But 'born in the wrong body' is transphopbic these days. thus I cannot understand what makes modern day transwomen (as opposed to transsexuals) any different from any other man...except for what they want to wear :S

I think gender identity is the driving force behind everything trans related, although I don't fully understand it either I can't see how it doesn't exist, if it didn't then there wouldn't be transgender people and none of this would be an issue.
No putting on a dress doesn't make someone a woman, but a man who feels like he is a woman might feel like wearing a dress or makeup etc will make other people more likely to consider them a woman and treat them as one. Yes they are steretypes but they're stereotypes that are imposed by wider society, not trans people, and trans people who conform to them are just trying to fit in and wanting to be viewed and treated as the gender they feel they are, rather than actually believing that it's those actions themselves that make them a woman. Socialisation is important in this, a lot of women feel more feminine wearing makeup or depending what they're wearing, sure not all women, but it's because of gender stereotypes that have been imposed onto them, and this is all part of gender identity, and how it's different in different people.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well that depends entirely on if you believe male and female are real distinct categories, and if sex segregation is needed doesn't it..

I went into what rights are being taken away above. There is not that much of a clash with 'trans rights' and 'womens rights', but the areas they do clash, its very important and the activists are just getting more and more violent in trying to silence any woman ( real or trans, transsexuals are being silenced also in the name of 'transgender') who speaks up.

So I don't generally believe that sex segregation is all that useful tbh, I certainly don't think that sex segregation is something that maintains the categories of man and woman as being distinct from each other. Man and Woman are distinct from each other naturally and sex segregation is something that results from that. If sex segregation weren't to exist, men and women would still be distinct categories. I do think that there are situations where sex segregation is a good thing, certain sports events for example, but mostly in normal everyday society I think we place way too much emphasis on sex segregation and personally I think it's unnecessary because it's not actually in place to protect women from danger imo, it's there because of social norms and to protect from discomfort. But I don't believe that unisex facilities actually provide a higher risk to anybody. The assumption that they do is actually segregation based on sexuality, more than it is based on sex. The assumption that if men and women share a unisex toilet that men as abusers may try and assault the women (under this logic gay men should be banned from using male public toilets to protect the other men who are using them). And where unisex facilities already exist I don't think there is any evidence that they are more dangerous places? Again it's more discomfort due to social norms than a realistic expectation of danger. The main showers at my swimming pool are unisex and are used by men/women/children, and although I'm sure a woman who has never used a unisex public shower before would certainly feel uncomfortable there at first, there is no actual danger there. Discomfort is legitimate and understandable but social norms can and do change. Situations that are not normal everyday society though, such as prisons and violent criminals, should be dealt with case by case and with common sense in a similar way to how every criminal's sentencing is done on an individual basis. If there is a realistic expectation of danger to women then I'd say that would outweigh an individual persons transgender rights, but it would depend on the case - and I don't think it should be as straightforward as ticking a box or saying they are transgender, there needs to be councelling/assessments etc.

I don't see any of this as taking anything away from cis-women though.
Women who are currently women will still be women, transgender women will also be considered women, men will still be men, and transgender men will be men, I'm sorry I just don't see why there is so much fear around this or what is expected to happen. Yes cis-women may have very different experiences growing up to transgender women but women from different nationalities may have very different experiences also. I think part of the reluctance is the feeling that by classifying transgender women as women, it makes them the same as cis-women, and it therefore nullifies the experiences of cis-women. But I think it's possible to be able to say that transgender women and cis women are women who just have very different life experiences.

Livia's post earlier is interesting...

Originally Posted by Livia

If transgender male to females want to be seen as women, they're going to have to be nicer and more understanding. Currently they're acting like bullyboys. I uphold their right to identify as a woman, to live as a woman and to lead a happy life. But I do not see them as being the same as me.

This is basically what I'm saying (although maybe in a different way to how Livia intended I'm not sure), but I'd say that transgender women and cis gender women can both be called women, but women with very different experiences and who aren't the same. I suppose I think that that's ok. My female to male transexual friend isn't the same as me and had very different experiences growing up and going through puberty to me, he doesn't have a penis, and if I really analyse the differences between our experiences as men then I'd say I don't consider him to be a man in the exact same way that I'm a man and he can't understand certain aspects of masculinity that I understand... but I still consider him to be a man. I don't know if that really makes sense or sounds like a contradiction lol but it makes sense in my head.
I think a comparison can be made with gay marriage and changing the definition of 'marriage'. The experiences of gay people in relationships can be different to straight people in relationships due to the way society treats them differently, but it doesn't really change how they feel within those relationships, and the definition of marriage changing to include gay marriage hasn't changed anything in how straight marriage is viewed or how straight people should consider their own marriages. Nothing was taken away from married straight couples.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

If you are genuinely interested, this is fairly long but goes into near all of the issues

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...otadebate/amp/

Summary of problems (including problems for transsexual people) here too - http://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

I do agree with some of this, mainly that the whole 'NotaDebate' thing is ridiculous. Transpeople should be pushing for the debate and including womens groups in trans debates as much as possible and the ones who are trying to shut down feminist opinions and prevent discussion are harming their cause. Both sides need to listen to each other more and try and understand where the other is coming from. Femnists need to try and understand what it's like for a trangender woman trying to fit in in society and that they aren't trying to take anything away from cis-women, and transgender women need to stop trying to shut people down, labelling people as transphobic and 'terfs'. I do think that a lot of the negative behaviour from trans people comes from a general feeling that they have never really been listened to and that must be pretty frustrating when you're trying to argue about something like gender identity which you can't prove, but yes of course they shouldn't be attacking. I think when it comes to twitter trolls though and things like death and rape threats that as sick as they are they can't really be used as a barometer of what the general thought is or be representative of all or most transgender people. People get death threats over twitter for insulting Justin Bieber like I'm not trying to make light of it I just don't think that these people or their views are representative. And I'm sure transgender people experience a lot of abuse and threats on their twitter accounts too.
I also think that some of what's in that first link is misleading though and problematic to the debate. Assuming perversion in a transgender woman wanting to use a female changing room. Suggesting an agenda with regards to stonewall adding transgender people to their remit. I don't like how it uses lesbians and gay men as examples of groups who may be affected because "new gender-identity laws may make it impossible for them to have single-sex events and organisations", where exactly would my friend who is female to male fit into this? and how would it negatively impact me if he came to a male only event? I also think a lot the language is manipulative and trying to generate fear where there doesn't need to be fear which isn't helpful. But I think I do have a better understanding of feminist opinion than I had before.

Anyway I think i'm pretty alone on here with most of this but my overall feeling is that both sides need to stop attacking and insulting each other because certain things are going to change, that just seems to be the way things are going, and so there needs to be more cooperation between different womens groups and trans groups, but for me I don't believe that the definition of 'woman' as a word being inclusive of transgender women actually disadvantages cisgender women,( I get that's where a lot of people fundamentally disagree and I understand why so fair enough but that's just how I feel about it), but I don't see it as a fusion of trans and cis women into one, an absorption of men into the category of women, I see it as cooperative, something where the differences that exist between the two can still be acknowledged and respected, and for it to be acceptable to point those differences out if it's relevant to do so without fear of losing a job, but at the same time for trans women to feel accepted by society, have a legitimate place in society, and be acknowledged as the gender they feel they are.


https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...mments-apology

I think this is a great article and explains much of how I feel really well, it's pretty long but the main points that resonate with me are:

This is the basic point that Adichie seemed to be making — that the experience of being “women born female,” as she put it, and the experience of transitioning to a woman just aren’t the same, and that it’s foolish to pretend they are.

But when trans advocates and allies say that “trans women are women,” they’re not actually trying to say that transgender women are the same as cisgender women (women who aren’t transgender). They’re trying to say that these differences shouldn’t disqualify trans women from the broader category of “womanhood.”

Neither gender nor biological sex is quite as simple as what’s on your birth certificate, trans advocates argue. And even if we don’t know what causes gender dysphoria, that doesn’t make it any less real for the people who experience it.

“I think that for people who have been wounded by gendering, it's quite accurate and understandable to say, ‘You don't share the same wound that I share,’” said Susan Stryker, associate professor of gender and women’s issues at the University of Arizona. “Where I start to have a problem with that argument is when it gets used to challenge trans people's access to gendered public space.”

When you get down to it, transgender women are making pretty basic requests of feminism. They want to be heard and included. They want the freedom to be who they are in public and in society, with no exceptions or qualifiers. And they want to stop being forced to defend their womanhood, their basic sense of self, and their humanity, against people who consider those things to be up for debate.

(Laverne Cox's tweets in this article regarding 'male privilege' are also really interesting to read)