[Jamie89]

Oh I just noticed you said 'not all the men obviously' so that post can be largely ignored I guess (although I still don't really think we're a big enough sample to really make any strong conclusions from that)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Oh I just noticed you said 'not all the men obviously' so that post can be largely ignored I guess (although I still don't really think we're a big enough sample to really make any strong conclusions from that)

Yeah I know there's not loads of people posting in here, tbh it's stuck out at me because we're having a referendum over here on abortion next year so there's alot of discussions going on atm and it seems to be a huge number of people who ring in talk shows etc on the No side are men, very vocal men and it bothers me so much that womens issues are trying to be dictated by men. It's maddening

[bots]

To be honest, it's typical of labour, and how they deal with "progressive" issues. They always seem to take things to ludicrous, wholly unnecessary extremes, and this is just another example.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Exactly. I find it abit insulting actually. I do wonder what men would think also if it were a female to male 19 year old transgendered person who got a job strictly to do with mens issues how they would feel about it? It makes no sense at all except for if they are trying to prove how "progressive" they are by doing it........whilst being regressive towards women at the same time

Totally.Stuff like this is where the term “regressive left” came from.This far left crap started in America in Unis and has made its way over here now.
It’s straight up virtue signaling and forget about the consequences cos ‘we’re like sooo progressive’.It’s like a disease that depletes common sense.

[jaxie]

What is even more infuriating is people enable this. It is PC gone clinically insane.

Being a woman is not about tottering around in heels and dress and make up and hair. It's about living with periods, childbirth, mysogyny, sexism, less opportunities and less pay. How dare they decide some boy in a dress represents me and my sex.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No offence but you're a man it's not men it effects so it's irrelevant if you're fine with it or not

Here, here. Those that are actually affected by it are the ones whose opinions count.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The misconception is that being a woman is purely biological it isn't, being female is... to be a woman you need a lifetime of social conditioning.
Germaine Greer was almost burned at the stake for saying similar... I 100% agreed with her, which at the time didn't go down too well on here.

This is not progressive, women for years have fought against their not perceived but actual disadvantage, it's not unreasonable to highlight that trans-gendered females have not cultured their womanhood from birth.

I'm not a 'TERF' which like 'PC' is a nonsensical term invented to mock those who wish to further the dialogue from what is being pushed as the preferred view of the majority.

The appointment was in my opinion a major error, you cannot push the rights of one marginalised group by denying the another.

TERF is just another insult aimed at women tbh. Its used very much in a 'burn the witch' way. Its telling that there is no slur for men who believe biology is relevant.

I was well and truly 'woke' to this when I got into a twitter argument where basically all I had said is that transwomen and women are not the same, and that we do actually need sex segregation as in other countries with none, there is more opportunistic sexual crimes committed by men against women. I recieved literally about 15 threats of rape, a message telling me a transwoman is a better woman than me as they have firm tits and not a 'baggy fanny' as they have not given birth. Apparently men would much prefer to shag a transwoman as their bodies are better and they are more feminine than actual women I also received 3 death threats, and had one person telling me they would search my previous tweets and such and find out where I lived. I ended up abandoning the account as it was so scary. This is the state of the debate around this today. Though their tagline is 'no debate' because they know their arguments are flimsy and pathetic and do not stand up to scrutiny.

The treatmnt of Greer is disgusting. A few feminists get it too. Julie Bindel is attacked regularly and the transactivists even made a site up about 'Julie Bindels genitals'

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

What is even more infuriating is people enable this. It is PC gone clinically insane.

Being a woman is not about tottering around in heels and dress and make up and hair. It's about living with periods, childbirth, mysogyny, sexism, less opportunities and less pay. How dare they decide some boy in a dress represents me and my sex.

It really is insulting, how dare they indeed. The Western world is pandering to PC far too much and as a consequence certain groups of people are trying their luck and being accommodated by political groups with an agenda. As I said before - enough rope ...!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It really is insulting, how dare they indeed. The Western world is pandering to PC far too much and as a consequence certain groups of people are trying their luck and being accommodated by political groups with an agenda. As I said before - enough rope ...!

This actually one of the few arguments where I do actually think its 'PC gone mad'. I am genuinely baffled as to how anyone can buy the arguments of transactivists (most of whom are just angry men who hate women) and how easily some will basically...trample all over real women, in favour of men who say they are women. Even transsexual people don't say they actually ARE the opposite sex. The arguments today are along the lines of 'my body is not a male body as I have a female brain. Thus, a penis is a female organ' and 'despite being assigned male at birth, I have always been female' and the totally ridiculous 'I am a lesbian and actual lesbians are transphobic for refusing to shag my male body'. Totally batshit crazy. And blindly accepted by some. Its kind of like a cult IMO.

[Kizzy]

I really hope Labour do something to address this issue as it will be used as a weapon to detract from sensible ideology.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I really hope Labour do something to address this issue as it will be used as a weapon to detract from sensible ideology.

Ditto,I agree.

[Vicky.]

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/s...66703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

[bots]

i want to be a smurf, i am a smurf, i've always been a smurf

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/s...66703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

A 19 year-old twat. I think he lives somewhere far away.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i want to be a smurf, i am a smurf, i've always been a smurf

That's pretty much as I imagine you.... :-)

If transgender male to females want to be seen as women, they're going to have to be nicer and more understanding. Currently they're acting like bullyboys. I uphold their right to identify as a woman, to live as a woman and to lead a happy life. But I do not see them as being the same as me.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/s...66703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

I'd assume that she means she wants to be considered a woman, because she feels like she is one and always been one. Or possibly that she wants to go through reassignment surgery. I don't know. I find it really hard to believe that anyone would put themselves through what transgender people go through on a whim. A tweet probably isn't the best form of communicating something so complex, or understanding what it is that makes a transgender person the way they are.

I've been reading a lot more recently both sides of the transgender/feminism debate because in all honesty I've never really seen them as being that connected, but seeing the strong opinions in here they obviously are, but what I don't really get is, what is it that is being taken away from women by allowing a transwoman to be considered a woman? I understand the arguments that they won't have experienced sexism and womens issues to the extent of women who were born female, but what actual rights are being taken away from women by including transwomen in that? That's something I can't find an answer to. I suppose you could say in this example it's the fact that a transwoman has a job that should have gone to a 'real' woman, but I still wouldn't see that as a right being taken away from women, as long as those women also had the opportunity to apply for the role. In terms of 'rights' they still would have been allowed to apply and carry it out had they been given it.
I've also been reading a bit about intersectional feminism and I wonder if feminism progressing to include transwomen is just the natural course of things as they become more accepted in society? I don't know though, I'd be interested to know what others think about that.

From the stuff I've read I think that the main crux of this debate comes down to whether or not you believe that gender identity is real, and that's where it's difficult because it's not something tangible and it's different in different people. Some people have no feelings relating to their gender, but for some people to go to the extent of having painful surgeries because of it, face mockery and insults because of it, kill themselves because of it, it surely has to exist and be overwhelming for some people. And even biological sex can be more complicated than just male/female. We know that intersex people exist (I know you said in the OP you didn't want to discuss intersex because of the small numbers of them, even though apparently there's actually more intersex people than there are transgender people but I'd say it's relevant given how so many people equate gender to biological sex, but just the fact that intersex people exist, regardless of numbers, shows that it isn't that straight forward a thing.)

Anyway, if gender identity is real (which I believe it is, it just doesn't manifest the way it does for transgender people in the same way it does everyone else, or at all in most people) then is it really so bad for them to want the rest of society to regard them in the way they identify? Is that imposing an ideology or isn't it just natural, we all want people to view us as the person we feel that we are? Most of us just don't have to even think about that because it happens naturally. And is their inclusion within the group that they identify with really taking anything away from the people currently in that group? That's something I'm really keen to understand. I don't personally feel that a transman takes anything away from me being a man but I appreciate it's probably different for women because of feminism which is why I'm asking.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i want to be a smurf, i am a smurf, i've always been a smurf

Smurfs don't have any genitals, it's probably a simpler existence tbh so good luck to you!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I've been reading a lot more recently both sides of the transgender/feminism debate because in all honesty I've never really seen them as being that connected, but seeing the strong opinions in here they obviously are, but what I don't really get is, what is it that is being taken away from women by allowing a transwoman to be considered a woman? I understand the arguments that they won't have experienced sexism and womens issues to the extent of women who were born female, but what actual rights are being taken away from women by including transwomen in that? That's something I can't find an answer to.

Generally the problem feminists have with it is the loss of women only spaces. Such as loos, prisons, sport, etc. Stuff that was fought for for hundreds of years.

Men lose their male spaces too. But it does not seem that there are loads of transmen lining up wanting into male areas. So it doesn't really affect men to the same extent at the moment.

The main problem I have with it all is the loss of sex segregation tbh. As I see segregation as very much needed (in certain areas anyway). If I wasn't expected to parrot the lie that you actually can change sex and if men weren't trying to force their way into female areas, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. Of course there is an added problem of anytime anyone says anything besides 'biology is totally irrelevant and is a social construct' they are hit with rape and death threats too (I have had 3 this week so far, people keep trying to show me how 'womanly' they are by threatening me with their girlcock. Hmm), which doesn't help tensions at all. I also think its important that language continue to actually make sense, so including male people in the meaning of 'woman' is a bit daft. Hence 'transwoman'. Not the same as women, and ridiculous to claim they are the same. I know people mean well when they say 'transwomen are women' and such, but at least think a little bit about what you are saying. Woman has a meaning, if woman includes men, then woman suddenly means 'person' instead, and we already have a word for person

I also think gender identity is such a load of crap. Maybe my opinion is clouded on that because I personally do not have one and am not religious so don't believe in some mysterious inner essence or whatever. But everyone should be able to dress however the hell they like..but I won't pretend that someone putting on a dress makes them an actual woman I think thats just lazy stereotyping. And besides stereotypes, I don't see what 'trans' is at all. I used to think it was people who had sex dysphoria and felt they did not fit in their bodies, similar to BDD. But 'born in the wrong body' is transphopbic these days. thus I cannot understand what makes modern day transwomen (as opposed to transsexuals) any different from any other man...except for what they want to wear :S

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Anyway, if gender identity is real (which I believe it is, it just doesn't manifest the way it does for transgender people in the same way it does everyone else, or at all in most people) then is it really so bad for them to want the rest of society to regard them in the way they identify? Is that imposing an ideology or isn't it just natural, we all want people to view us as the person we feel that we are? Most of us just don't have to even think about that because it happens naturally. And is their inclusion within the group that they identify with really taking anything away from the people currently in that group? That's something I'm really keen to understand. I don't personally feel that a transman takes anything away from me being a man but I appreciate it's probably different for women because of feminism which is why I'm asking.

Well that depends entirely on if you believe male and female are real distinct categories, and if sex segregation is needed doesn't it..

I went into what rights are being taken away above. There is not that much of a clash with 'trans rights' and 'womens rights', but the areas they do clash, its very important and the activists are just getting more and more violent in trying to silence any woman ( real or trans, transsexuals are being silenced also in the name of 'transgender') who speaks up.

[Vicky.]

If you are genuinely interested, this is fairly long but goes into near all of the issues

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...otadebate/amp/

Summary of problems (including problems for transsexual people) here too - http://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

If you are genuinely interested, this is fairly long but goes into near all of the issues

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...otadebate/amp/

Summary of problems (including problems for transsexual people) here too - http://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Thanks for those Vicky, fascinating reads. And I have to say I am 100% in agreement with you on this issue.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Thanks for those Vicky, fascinating reads. And I have to say I am 100% in agreement with you on this issue.

I genuinely do think that most people would agree on this issue, if they realized whats actually going on. As it stands, anyone who tries to speak out about it is threatened into silence, or even physically attacked. People seem less scared these days though. Maybe this is due to so many cases being publicized and thus more people finding out the extent of the crazyness.

I just hope that actual transsexual people are not caught in the crossfire. As its not transsexual people who are causing the problems we see today, and indeed most transsexuals are pretty sane on this issue, its not them screeching on about how male people actually ARE female and such. It is 'transgender' people. More specifically, 'transgender women' (or trans-identified males as I prefer to call them, as they are not women in any sense of the word, especially when threatening to rape me with their ladysticks )

Transsexual people are subjected to the exact same rape and death threats as women are, when they speak up on this issue. From the same people who claim to be fighting for them. You have to wonder who will actually benefit from the majority of 'transactivism', as its certainly not transsexual people.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I genuinely do think that most people would agree on this issue, if they realized whats actually going on. As it stands, anyone who tries to speak out about it is threatened into silence, or even physically attacked. People seem less scared these days though. Maybe this is due to so many cases being publicized and thus more people finding out the extent of the crazyness.

I just hope that actual transsexual people are not caught in the crossfire. As its not transsexual people who are causing the problems we see today, and indeed most transsexuals are pretty sane on this issue, its not them screeching on about how male people actually ARE female and such. It is 'transgender' people. More specifically, 'transgender women' (or trans-identified males as I prefer to call them, as they are not women in any sense of the word, especially when threatening to rape me with their ladysticks )

Transsexual people are subjected to the exact same rape and death threats as women are, when they speak up on this issue. From the same people who claim to be fighting for them. You have to wonder who will actually benefit from the majority of 'transactivism', as its certainly not transsexual people.

It seems that the militant few are always to blame for this kind of crap, and like you say, transsexual people must get caught in the crossfire. The whole militant stance on this has cast a very poor light on the transsexual community when it's not really the majority of them causing the stir and when I imagine they have plenty of issues to deal with in their lives already.

[Vicky.]

Its the militant few who are actually being consulted on changes to the law though. If they could just be written off as a few crazies, that would be great. But they are not and are actually being listened to.

It seems to be a fair few of the 'transgender' (note, not transsexual I feel the distinction is important) people today who do go along with the crazy viewpoints though. I do not know even one lesbian who has not been put in a dodgy position by 'women with penises' (I did know one who hadn't, until a month or so ago but now she has joined the rest). Might have started as a handful of crazies, but people have latched onto it as a way to attack women, or to get into the knickers of lesbians. its gross

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Its the militant few who are actually being consulted on changes to the law though. If they could just be written off as a few crazies, that would be great. But they are not and are actually being listened to.

It seems to be a fair few of the 'transgender' (note, not transsexual I feel the distinction is important) people today who do go along with the crazy viewpoints though. I do not know even one lesbian who has not been put in a dodgy position by 'women with penises' (I did know one who hadn't, until a month or so ago but now she has joined the rest). Might have started as a handful of crazies, but people have latched onto it as a way to attack women, or to get into the knickers of lesbians. its gross

I'm sure they won't be allowed to form the legislation if it's going to impact negatively on - and I use this term advisedly - real women. Thankfully, there are plenty of women in the legal profession these days and that's because we fought for decades, centuries, for our rights to be acknowledged. We've got to be vigilant to make sure those rights are not impacted by the penis, as they have been since time immemorial, and at the same time uphold the rights of transsexual people. It's a muddy one.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm sure they won't be allowed to form the legislation if it's going to impact negatively on - and I use this term advisedly - real women. Thankfully, there are plenty of women in the legal profession these days and that's because we fought for decades, centuries, for our rights to be acknowledged. We've got to be vigilant to make sure those rights are not impacted by the penis, as they have been since time immemorial, and at the same time uphold the rights of transsexual people. It's a muddy one.

Completely agree with this!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm sure they won't be allowed to form the legislation if it's going to impact negatively on - and I use this term advisedly - real women. Thankfully, there are plenty of women in the legal profession these days and that's because we fought for decades, centuries, for our rights to be acknowledged. We've got to be vigilant to make sure those rights are not impacted by the penis, as they have been since time immemorial, and at the same time uphold the rights of transsexual people. It's a muddy one.

Sadly its real women who are pushing the changes through. Its Maria Millers bill thats wanting to remove all 'gatekeeping' from the GRA process. Meaning, it will literally be as easy as filling in a form to 'change sex'. Its supported by May too apparently.

There is no need whatsoever to change the GRC. Its fine as it is. Those wishing 'changing sex' to be as easy as filling in a form on the internet have had (until recent months) almost full support as people did not think any deeper into what this would actually mean :S

With it finally being publicized (largely thanks to the Times..who seem to be the only paper willing to report on it properly) I am hopeful that the nonsense will not win.