[jaxie]

This is a very interesting thread. I more or less agree with everything Vicky has said so don't have a lot to add. I simply don't understand why anyone but a man would feel comfortable having unisex changing rooms or toilets. While a man might be comfortable getting changed in front of a group of strange women, I would not feel comfortable in front of a group of strange men who are not related to me. This would be very intimidating and uncomfortable. A lesbian or bi woman is a woman and I would not be at all bothered sharing a changing room with either. Most men's toilets smell a lot worse than women's, men are welcome to those too, and to any chance a phone might come under the door when you have a wee, (don't tell it would never happen, filming up girls skirts without permission is already a thing) or coming out of a cubicle into a crowd of tipsy blokes. No thanks.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

This is a very interesting thread. I more or less agree with everything Vicky has said so don't have a lot to add. I simply don't understand why anyone but a man would feel comfortable having unisex changing rooms or toilets. While a man might be comfortable getting changed in front of a group of strange women, I would not feel comfortable in front of a group of strange men who are not related to me. This would be very intimidating and uncomfortable. A lesbian or bi woman is a woman and I would not be at all bothered sharing a changing room with either. Most men's toilets smell a lot worse than women's, men are welcome to those too, and to any chance a phone might come under the door when you have a wee, (don't tell it would never happen, filming up girls skirts without permission is already a thing) or coming out of a cubicle into a crowd of tipsy blokes. No thanks.

Completely agree.

But once again it seems to be about men, or to be more exact, men who self identify as women, rather than those born as women. Seems to be a pattern here.

There has to be a unisex option as well as women cannot be forced to accept sharing bathrooms/toilets with men who simply self-identify as women, which is clearly open to considerable abuse.

What about young vulnerable girls out on their own needing to use the loo. Sex attacks on young women are on the increase and this is no time to be getting all PC and putting the rights of one group before the rights and safety of another group.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Completely agree.

But once again it seems to be about men, or to be more exact, men who self identify as women, rather than those born as women. Seems to be a pattern here.

There has to be a unisex option as well as women cannot be forced to accept sharing bathrooms/toilets with men who simply self-identify as women, which is clearly open to considerable abuse.

What about young vulnerable girls out on their own needing to use the loo. Sex attacks on young women are on the increase and this is no time to be getting all PC and putting the rights of one group before the rights and safety of another group.

Are you suggesting it's transwomen attacking girls?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

Are you suggesting it's transwomen attacking girls?

No I am clearly suggesting that predatory men posing as transwomen, hardly difficult to do if all they have to do is self-identify, are and will be presented with an easier method of doing so if they can legitimately hang around the female bathrooms.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

Are you suggesting it's transwomen attacking girls?

I suppose the worry would not be that it's genuine transwomen who are attacking people, but rather, that people who are inclined to attack people might opportunistically abuse the situation by claiming to be trans in order to access female facilities.

IMO though, the solution is individual self contained unisex toilets (with toilet and hand basin) .

As for changing facilities... I dunno if it's just around here... but the vast majority of clothing shops and supermarkets are NOT segregated / with just curtains, there is just one area with a number of individual locking changing rooms? I don't see why that model would be a problem in sports / swimming facilities, also. Frankly it would be better for a lot of people; plenty don't like getting changed in front of anyone, regardless of gender, and would prefer total privacy.

[edit] It would also be much better for families and especially dads with those "awkward age" kids like my eldest. Up until maybe 4 or 5 she had no problem coming into men's changing... and I'm sure once she's 10 or 11 she will happily go into the womens on her own. Currently, though, aged 8, it's an impossible situation if I take her swimming on my own. She refuses to go into men's changing (and it isn't really appropriate for her to), but also is nervous about going into the women's on her own and obviously I can't join her. Genuinely don't see why it can't be a communal locker area with individual, secure changing booths.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I suppose the worry would not be that it's genuine transwomen who are attacking people, but rather, that people who are inclined to attack people might opportunistically abuse the situation by claiming to be trans in order to access female facilities.

IMO though, the solution is individual self contained unisex toilets (with toilet and hand basin) .

As for changing facilities... I dunno if it's just around here... but the vast majority of clothing shops and supermarkets are NOT segregated / with just curtains, there is just one area with a number of individual locking changing rooms? I don't see why that model would be a problem in sports / swimming facilities, also. Frankly it would be better for a lot of people; plenty don't like getting changed in front of anyone, regardless of gender, and would prefer total privacy.

[edit] It would also be much better for families and especially dads with those "awkward age" kids like my eldest. Up until maybe 4 or 5 she had no problem coming into men's changing... and I'm sure once she's 10 or 11 she will happily go into the womens on her own. Currently, though, aged 8, it's an impossible situation if I take her swimming on my own. She refuses to go into men's changing (and it isn't really appropriate for her to), but also is nervous about going into the women's on her own and obviously I can't join her. Genuinely don't see why it can't be a communal locker area with individual, secure changing booths.

Brillo had clarified before you posted.

Why would your swimming issue specifically affect dads?... I had exactly the same issue taking my son swimming :/

I believe everyone has a right to privacy, young, old whatever gender or non gender. If the swim, gym, toilet can't accommodate those needs then find another.

[The Slim Reaper]

I just use the disabled toilet; it's always cleaner and more room.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

Brillo had clarified before you posted.

Why would your swimming issue specifically affect dads?... I had exactly the same issue taking my son swimming :/

I believe everyone has a right to privacy, young, old whatever gender or non gender. If the swim, gym, toilet can't accommodate those needs then find another.

OK yes, it probably affects both in many ways. Although frankly... people tend to have far less issue with a male child being in a female changing area than they do with a female child being in a male changing area.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

OK yes, it probably affects both in many ways. Although frankly... people tend to have far less issue with a male child being in a female changing area than they do with a female child being in a male changing area.

I have the same problem with my son aged 7....although he's adamant he wants to go on the mens on his own, luckily our local pool has family changing rooms

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

OK yes, it probably affects both in many ways. Although frankly... people tend to have far less issue with a male child being in a female changing area than they do with a female child being in a male changing area.

I thought your angle was the wishes of the child?
thanks for mansplaining this for me though

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I suppose the worry would not be that it's genuine transwomen who are attacking people, but rather, that people who are inclined to attack people might opportunistically abuse the situation by claiming to be trans in order to access female facilities.

IMO though, the solution is individual self contained unisex toilets (with toilet and hand basin) .

As for changing facilities... I dunno if it's just around here... but the vast majority of clothing shops and supermarkets are NOT segregated / with just curtains, there is just one area with a number of individual locking changing rooms? I don't see why that model would be a problem in sports / swimming facilities, also. Frankly it would be better for a lot of people; plenty don't like getting changed in front of anyone, regardless of gender, and would prefer total privacy.

[edit] It would also be much better for families and especially dads with those "awkward age" kids like my eldest. Up until maybe 4 or 5 she had no problem coming into men's changing... and I'm sure once she's 10 or 11 she will happily go into the womens on her own. Currently, though, aged 8, it's an impossible situation if I take her swimming on my own. She refuses to go into men's changing (and it isn't really appropriate for her to), but also is nervous about going into the women's on her own and obviously I can't join her. Genuinely don't see why it can't be a communal locker area with individual, secure changing booths.

I've been to few pools that had family cubicles which are very handy

[user104658]

Originally Posted by ChristmasNeeve

I've been to few pools that had family cubicles which are very handy

The one I went to when I was a kid had three full areas (men's, women's and family) and it seemed like a really simple solution - but I've yet to see another pool with that set up since! A couple with one or two separate family change rooms, but usually with a queue to use them.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The one I went to when I was a kid had three full areas (men's, women's and family) and it seemed like a really simple solution - but I've yet to see another pool with that set up since! A couple with one or two separate family change rooms, but usually with a queue to use them.

Yup it would be good if places would do this.


Male, female and unisex/family. Would be perfect really and surely would solve all the arguments over this issue. Any man who doesn't want to use the mens could go into the unisex rather than the womens. Transactivists do not want this though, as apparently its 'othering' to trans people. But...they ARE 'other' as they are males who 'feel like' women rather than actual women, and vice versa. So 'othering' is completely right in this case.

But yes, places really should start catering more for everyone. That will take a lot of time and money mind. Which is why I think so many are happy to just chuck men in with women. Who cares what the women think about it, its cheaper and easier and we also get to look 'right on!'

(I speak mainly of transwomen rather than transmen, because there are so many cases of 'transwomen' wailing about wanting to be in the womens. Never hear of transmen wanting into the mens. Seems for some odd reason, the womens is where everyone wants to be. I wonder why that is )