[Firewire]

We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller
We say to girls: "You can have ambition, but not too much
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful
Otherwise, you will threaten the man"
Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage
I am expected to make my life choices
Always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important
Now, marriage can be a source of joy and love and mutual support
But why do we teach girls to aspire to marriage
And we don't teach boys the same?
We raise girls to see each other as competitors
Not for jobs or for accomplishments, which I think can be a good thing
But for the attention of men
We teach girls that they cannot be sexual beings in the way that boys are
Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

[lewis111]

Originally Posted by Firewire

We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller
We say to girls: "You can have ambition, but not too much
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful
Otherwise, you will threaten the man"
Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage
I am expected to make my life choices
Always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important
Now, marriage can be a source of joy and love and mutual support
But why do we teach girls to aspire to marriage
And we don't teach boys the same?
We raise girls to see each other as competitors
Not for jobs or for accomplishments, which I think can be a good thing
But for the attention of men
We teach girls that they cannot be sexual beings in the way that boys are
Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Firewire

We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller
We say to girls: "You can have ambition, but not too much
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful
Otherwise, you will threaten the man"
Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage
I am expected to make my life choices
Always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important
Now, marriage can be a source of joy and love and mutual support
But why do we teach girls to aspire to marriage
And we don't teach boys the same?
We raise girls to see each other as competitors
Not for jobs or for accomplishments, which I think can be a good thing
But for the attention of men
We teach girls that they cannot be sexual beings in the way that boys are
Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/990...selves-smaller

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/990...selves-smaller

Thanks

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Thanks

you did not provide a link to what you copied

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

you did not provide a link to what you copied

Is it necessary?

And besides you copied the wrong thing

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Is it necessary?

And besides you copied the wrong thing

yes its forum decorum to link to anything you cut and paste so that people are not confused between your own posts and that of others


as you already know

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes its forum decorum to link to anything you cut and paste so that people are not confused between your own posts and that of others


as you already know

I would like to think people aren't that stupid

[Underscore]

Originally Posted by Firewire

We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller
We say to girls: "You can have ambition, but not too much
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful
Otherwise, you will threaten the man"
Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage
I am expected to make my life choices
Always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important
Now, marriage can be a source of joy and love and mutual support
But why do we teach girls to aspire to marriage
And we don't teach boys the same?
We raise girls to see each other as competitors
Not for jobs or for accomplishments, which I think can be a good thing
But for the attention of men
We teach girls that they cannot be sexual beings in the way that boys are
Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Firewire

We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller
We say to girls: "You can have ambition, but not too much
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful
Otherwise, you will threaten the man"
Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage
I am expected to make my life choices
Always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important
Now, marriage can be a source of joy and love and mutual support
But why do we teach girls to aspire to marriage
And we don't teach boys the same?
We raise girls to see each other as competitors
Not for jobs or for accomplishments, which I think can be a good thing
But for the attention of men
We teach girls that they cannot be sexual beings in the way that boys are
Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

Excellent FireWire. Very, very true!

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Excellent FireWire. Very, very true!

Don't thank me, thank Chimamanda.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Firewire

We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller
We say to girls: "You can have ambition, but not too much
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful
Otherwise, you will threaten the man"
Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage
I am expected to make my life choices
Always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important
Now, marriage can be a source of joy and love and mutual support
But why do we teach girls to aspire to marriage
And we don't teach boys the same?
We raise girls to see each other as competitors
Not for jobs or for accomplishments, which I think can be a good thing
But for the attention of men
We teach girls that they cannot be sexual beings in the way that boys are
Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

Beautiful

Feminism to me is about liberating women from oppression tbh. I know many will scoff at that and say women are not oppressed but I disagree. Yes it is much better for female people in this country than it is elsewhere but not many people truly see men and women as equal, so many still see women as something thats just there for mens amusement. Also womens rights (that we currently have) are almost constantly under attack (a good recent example if this push to eliminate female only spaces and services and let people 'self identify' their sex), so those claiming feminism is no longer needed are wrong.

I do think part of womens oppression is based in nature though. We are the weaker sex, we will be dominated in certain areas of life and thats pretty impossible to prevent. But I feel a lot of the way a lot of men behave towards women is 'taught' and not nature. From the second it is announced 'its a girl/boy' the child is treat differently. This needs to stop really, else we will never get anywhere. I try to bring up my kids exactly the same but even though I am consciously trying to do this, I do slip up as the behaviour expected of males and females is so deeply ingrained...its hard to shift.

This went on a bit longer than I planned it too tbh, and possibly went offtopic too. Its hard to talk ab out feminism on here with so many people waiting to jump on you if you say the wrong thing. From all angles.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Beautiful

Feminism to me is about liberating women from oppression tbh. I know many will scoff at that and say women are not oppressed but I disagree. Yes it is much better for female people in this country than it is elsewhere but not many people truly see men and women as equal, so many still see women as something thats just there for mens amusement. Also womens rights (that we currently have) are almost constantly under attack (a good recent example if this push to eliminate female only spaces and services and let people 'self identify' their sex), so those claiming feminism is no longer needed are wrong.

I do think part of womens oppression is based in nature though. We are the weaker sex, we will be dominated in certain areas of life and thats pretty impossible to prevent. But I feel a lot of the way a lot of men behave towards women is 'taught' and not nature. From the second it is announced 'its a girl/boy' the child is treat differently. This needs to stop really, else we will never get anywhere. I try to bring up my kids exactly the same but even though I am consciously trying to do this, I do slip up as the behaviour expected of males and females is so deeply ingrained...its hard to shift.

This went on a bit longer than I planned it too tbh, and possibly went offtopic too. Its hard to talk ab out feminism on here with so many people waiting to jump on you if you say the wrong thing. From all angles.

I studied this a bit years ago in a nature nurture debate and babies are treated very differently from the moment they are born. There is no denying it. Parents don’t even know they are doing it. It’s so ingrained. The conditioning continues from then on in in our expectations of them, the toys we buy them etc. Men in particular have a tendency to treat their daughters differently especially when they reach the teenage years and it has always annoyed the heck out of me.

I had no end of falling-outs with my mother over this, she was more old-school, but always stuck to my guns and would not be told how to live my life. When I had children I only had boys and always felt quite protective of them but can’t imagine treating them any different from a daughter. I would have the same dreams and expectations for both and hope they did things their way.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Beautiful

Feminism to me is about liberating women from oppression tbh. I know many will scoff at that and say women are not oppressed but I disagree. Yes it is much better for female people in this country than it is elsewhere but not many people truly see men and women as equal, so many still see women as something thats just there for mens amusement. Also womens rights (that we currently have) are almost constantly under attack (a good recent example if this push to eliminate female only spaces and services and let people 'self identify' their sex), so those claiming feminism is no longer needed are wrong.

I do think part of womens oppression is based in nature though. We are the weaker sex, we will be dominated in certain areas of life and thats pretty impossible to prevent. But I feel a lot of the way a lot of men behave towards women is 'taught' and not nature. From the second it is announced 'its a girl/boy' the child is treat differently. This needs to stop really, else we will never get anywhere. I try to bring up my kids exactly the same but even though I am consciously trying to do this, I do slip up as the behaviour expected of males and females is so deeply ingrained...its hard to shift.

This went on a bit longer than I planned it too tbh, and possibly went offtopic too. Its hard to talk ab out feminism on here with so many people waiting to jump on you if you say the wrong thing. From all angles.

...I’m not scoffing, Vicky...I promise you I’m not but I do think it’s sometimes tricky to define oppression because surely in some cultures for instance...we may feel we see oppression but that female doesn’t necessarily feel oppression because they feel they’re making their own choices within their own culture and beliefs ...so we have to respect that also otherwise, we would become the oppressors ourselves, if that makes sense...that doesn’t mean there aren’t some things though that protection against isn’t needed with our laws etc...hmmm, I’m also not sure I agree with ‘so many still see women there as men’s amusement’...yes there are some obviously who do have that mindset and there are laws to protect also..but I don’t think it’s a ‘many’ thing, and a more generalised and extensive thing for the male mindset today...and that then also risks taking back feminism a little as well because it could be perceived as indicating a low opinion of males felt by ‘the feminist females’...so then things start to hinder rather than progress forward because it could create a resistance to femism...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I’m not scoffing, Vicky...I promise you I’m not but I do think it’s sometimes tricky to define oppression because surely in some cultures for instance...we may feel we see oppression but that female doesn’t necessarily feel oppression because they feel they’re making their own choices within their own culture and beliefs ...so we have to respect that also otherwise, we would become the oppressors ourselves, if that makes sense...that doesn’t mean there aren’t some things though that protection against isn’t needed with our laws etc...hmmm, I’m also not sure I agree with ‘so many still see women there as men’s amusement’...yes there are some obviously who do have that mindset and there are laws to protect also..but I don’t think it’s a ‘many’ thing, and a more generalised and extensive thing for the male mindset today...and that then also risks taking back feminism a little as well because it could be perceived as indicating a low opinion of males felt by ‘the feminist females’...so then things start to hinder rather than progress forward because it could create a resistance to femism...

There has always been, and there always will be, resistance to feminism. Especially when papers such as the mail make out that all feminists are hairy ugly fat man haters. And people eat that up.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

There has always been, and there always will be, resistance to feminism. Especially when papers such as the mail make out that all feminists are hairy ugly fat man haters. And people eat that up.

...well various media demonisation of many, many things is all of our ‘daily fight’, I guess we could say.....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

There has always been, and there always will be, resistance to feminism. Especially when papers such as the mail make out that all feminists are hairy ugly fat man haters. And people eat that up.

There is a very real and present backlash against modern feminism because modern feminism is more based in anger and retribution than in progression or finding solutions; partly because people feel duty-bound to engage in something that they don't have the time nor inclination to actually try to understand in anything but the most superficial depth, and partly due to being hijacked by individuals who, frankly, just enjoy being combative activists and would actually be completely lost if true equality was achieved and they no longer had "their defining cause".

Pretending that backlash doesn't exist, or that it is baseless, is dangerous and will erode any progress towards actual diversity. When people quite brazenly "don't care" about that and reserve the right to "be angry and rant" - I have to question whether their motivation really is equality at all, or if the kick they get from the rant itself is somehow more important.

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Beautiful

Feminism to me is about liberating women from oppression tbh. I know many will scoff at that and say women are not oppressed but I disagree. Yes it is much better for female people in this country than it is elsewhere but not many people truly see men and women as equal, so many still see women as something thats just there for mens amusement. Also womens rights (that we currently have) are almost constantly under attack (a good recent example if this push to eliminate female only spaces and services and let people 'self identify' their sex), so those claiming feminism is no longer needed are wrong.

I do think part of womens oppression is based in nature though. We are the weaker sex, we will be dominated in certain areas of life and thats pretty impossible to prevent. But I feel a lot of the way a lot of men behave towards women is 'taught' and not nature. From the second it is announced 'its a girl/boy' the child is treat differently. This needs to stop really, else we will never get anywhere. I try to bring up my kids exactly the same but even though I am consciously trying to do this, I do slip up as the behaviour expected of males and females is so deeply ingrained...its hard to shift.

This went on a bit longer than I planned it too tbh, and possibly went offtopic too. Its hard to talk ab out feminism on here with so many people waiting to jump on you if you say the wrong thing. From all angles.

Yeah people don’t see men and woman as equal, women are generally more protected and valued in society and actually quite a few ‘rights’ that men don’t have

But feminism won’t do anything about that despite saying they’re about equality, which baffles me as to why everyone campaigning for equality can’t all just like not label themselves and work together to make every human being truly equal

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

I was just gonna post this bit

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

This is currently a wildly inaccurate definition.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is currently a wildly inaccurate definition.

Ok then so what does it mean

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Ok then so what does it mean

Modern feminism? It doesn't have a fixed definition; and that's 90% of the problem.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Modern feminism? It doesn't have a fixed definition; and that's 90% of the problem.

There’s no such thing as “modern feminism”

Feminism is what Jonathan posted, the issue you have is with SJW who take things to the extreme, label it as feminism and then people begin to resent what feminism actually is

[Ammi]

...it’s just odd really with the F1 grid girl thing atm as well...and we’re defining femism as equal choice which obviously it is...but then when that choice is given, which it is to the grid girls..we’re saying no, we need to ban that, you can’t do it ...and why do we want it banned, well it’s not you actually, it’s those awful men so blame them for banning you and taking away your choice of that unique experience...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it’s just odd really with the F1 grid girl thing atm as well...and we’re defining femism as equal choice which obviously it is...but then when that choice is given, which it is to the grid girls..we’re saying no, we need to ban that, you can’t do it ...and why do we want it banned, well it’s not you actually, it’s those awful men so blame them for banning you and taking away your choice of that unique experience...

It's essentially an attempt at a form of "social engineering" with the aim being to force equality of outcome "as soon as possible" instead of providing legal equality and equality of opportunity and accepting that equality of outcome will take time to come to fruition.

And its not even that I don't understand the desire to "make it happen quickly, make it happen now" or the frustration in realising that "this stuff takes time" ... It's just that these forms of forced social engineering through dictating what people can and cannot do "because of the message it sends" simply don't work and actually, no matter how well meaning they are, generate an inevitable backlash that sets back real progress years, maybe decades, maybe halts or reverses it completely.

In short, I find modern feminism to be more about identifying "how things should be ideally" and screaming "IT MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT WE SAY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN", instead of actually engaging in the - yes, unfortunately, sometimes frustratingly slow - pursuit of freedoms for all that contribute to ever-increasing equality as a simple natural consequence of progress, and not because a square peg has been battered into a round hole.

Put more succinctly - I think the thought process is too often "this is how I want things to be right now, for me" instead of "these are the goals we need to seek for tomorrow, for everyone".

With specific regard to the F1 situation; I fully believe that if society continues on a positive, progressive, non-combative trajectory of true inclusion and equality, then the "girls in tight dresses" will naturally die off, so to speak, as they become outdated and attitudes change. This is in contrast to to current urge to FORCE such changes with the idea that doing so will somehow change attitudes. It won't. It might bury them, it might tempt people to hide them, it will not change them, and if the last two or three years have taught us anything at all it should be that attempting to force rapid change through repression just creates a resentment bubble, one that invariably bursts, and then you get Brexit, and Trump, and EMBOLDENED sexism and racism rather than less of it.


Tl;Dr - the key to equality of outcome is maintenance of equality of opportunity + patience. People lack patience and want to force FALSE equality of outcome through legislation and positive discrimination. The bulk of modern feminism falls into the latter category.