[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is currently a wildly inaccurate definition.

Ok then so what does it mean

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Ok then so what does it mean

Modern feminism? It doesn't have a fixed definition; and that's 90% of the problem.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Modern feminism? It doesn't have a fixed definition; and that's 90% of the problem.

There’s no such thing as “modern feminism”

Feminism is what Jonathan posted, the issue you have is with SJW who take things to the extreme, label it as feminism and then people begin to resent what feminism actually is

[Ammi]

...it’s just odd really with the F1 grid girl thing atm as well...and we’re defining femism as equal choice which obviously it is...but then when that choice is given, which it is to the grid girls..we’re saying no, we need to ban that, you can’t do it ...and why do we want it banned, well it’s not you actually, it’s those awful men so blame them for banning you and taking away your choice of that unique experience...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it’s just odd really with the F1 grid girl thing atm as well...and we’re defining femism as equal choice which obviously it is...but then when that choice is given, which it is to the grid girls..we’re saying no, we need to ban that, you can’t do it ...and why do we want it banned, well it’s not you actually, it’s those awful men so blame them for banning you and taking away your choice of that unique experience...

It's essentially an attempt at a form of "social engineering" with the aim being to force equality of outcome "as soon as possible" instead of providing legal equality and equality of opportunity and accepting that equality of outcome will take time to come to fruition.

And its not even that I don't understand the desire to "make it happen quickly, make it happen now" or the frustration in realising that "this stuff takes time" ... It's just that these forms of forced social engineering through dictating what people can and cannot do "because of the message it sends" simply don't work and actually, no matter how well meaning they are, generate an inevitable backlash that sets back real progress years, maybe decades, maybe halts or reverses it completely.

In short, I find modern feminism to be more about identifying "how things should be ideally" and screaming "IT MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT WE SAY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN", instead of actually engaging in the - yes, unfortunately, sometimes frustratingly slow - pursuit of freedoms for all that contribute to ever-increasing equality as a simple natural consequence of progress, and not because a square peg has been battered into a round hole.

Put more succinctly - I think the thought process is too often "this is how I want things to be right now, for me" instead of "these are the goals we need to seek for tomorrow, for everyone".

With specific regard to the F1 situation; I fully believe that if society continues on a positive, progressive, non-combative trajectory of true inclusion and equality, then the "girls in tight dresses" will naturally die off, so to speak, as they become outdated and attitudes change. This is in contrast to to current urge to FORCE such changes with the idea that doing so will somehow change attitudes. It won't. It might bury them, it might tempt people to hide them, it will not change them, and if the last two or three years have taught us anything at all it should be that attempting to force rapid change through repression just creates a resentment bubble, one that invariably bursts, and then you get Brexit, and Trump, and EMBOLDENED sexism and racism rather than less of it.


Tl;Dr - the key to equality of outcome is maintenance of equality of opportunity + patience. People lack patience and want to force FALSE equality of outcome through legislation and positive discrimination. The bulk of modern feminism falls into the latter category.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's essentially an attempt at a form of "social engineering" with the aim being to force equality of outcome "as soon as possible" instead of providing legal equality and equality of opportunity and accepting that equality of outcome will take time to come to fruition.

And its not even that I don't understand the desire to "make it happen quickly, make it happen now" or the frustration in realising that "this stuff takes time" ... It's just that these forms of forced social engineering through dictating what people can and cannot do "because of the message it sends" simply don't work and actually, no matter how well meaning they are, generate an inevitable backlash that sets back real progress years, maybe decades, maybe halts or reverses it completely.

In short, I find modern feminism to be more about identifying "how things should be ideally" and screaming "IT MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT WE SAY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN", instead of actually engaging in the - yes, unfortunately, sometimes frustratingly slow - pursuit of freedoms for all that contribute to ever-increasing equality as a simple natural consequence of progress, and not because a square peg has been battered into a round hole.

Put more succinctly - I think the thought process is too often "this is how I want things to be right now, for me" instead of "these are the goals we need to seek for tomorrow, for everyone".

With specific regard to the F1 situation; I fully believe that if society continues on a positive, progressive, non-combative trajectory of true inclusion and equality, then the "girls in tight dresses" will naturally die off, so to speak, as they become outdated and attitudes change. This is in contrast to to current urge to FORCE such changes with the idea that doing so will somehow change attitudes. It won't. It might bury them, it might tempt people to hide them, it will not change them, and if the last two or three years have taught us anything at all it should be that attempting to force rapid change through repression just creates a resentment bubble, one that invariably bursts, and then you get Brexit, and Trump, and EMBOLDENED sexism and racism rather than less of it.


Tl;Dr - the key to equality of outcome is maintenance of equality of opportunity + patience. People lack patience and want to force FALSE equality of outcome through legislation and positive discrimination. The bulk of modern feminism falls into the latter category.

...sorry, it’ll just have to be a quick reply because I need to eat...but with regard to the F1 grid girls, yeah I agree, I think some types of representations will just die off naturally...but for the times they have been a part of it F1..?...I think the opportunity for the girls has probably been quite important to them in terms of experience and also probably seen as a ‘priveledge’...just slightly off topic, one of my nieces...which is the closest I have to a daughter...?...through her teens, she did some modelling, waitressing and also a bit of acting ...she was an extra in a Harry Potter...some people, did actually say to her...oh, I don’t know, be careful with the modelling because MEN and exploitation and such the like...anyway, that’s all you can do, advise really and some of her friends did...but she did it all as part of her life expanding experiences...and now she practises law in France...I think what I’m trying to say is that these experiences like being grid girls etc...are not necessarily aspirations either, they’re just experiences on a journey and I would think, are probably very positive ones to have...

...and I do totally agree about ‘backlash’ as well, no matter how well meaning etc..?...I mean we could say that Brexit/the result, was partly backlash as well for some...(..not all obviously..)...things that are meant to feel progressive can often be quite the opposite and be very hindering...anyways, have to go.....