[Beso]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

or that posters are trying to pass off other peoples work

Slay

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well explained TS. I agree with most points you just made. I think the frustration is understandable though, we have been fighting to be equal for a hundred years and are still not there. By law, yes, but in reality no. I understand the urge to essentially...force change rather than let it happen naturally. As waiting for it to just happen does not seem to be working and things are already starting to go backwards. If we just wait and see..chances are evertything will just go way back, and then the same work that has already been done, will need to be done again. if that makes sense.

In short, I understand where you are coming from totally...but at the same time I just cannot see how just waiting for change will help anything.

That's my point though; what I would call "real" equality, in terms of generally changing mindsets etc, have been around for a few decades and while that might seem like a long time... It isn't. Measures that are already in place will take entire generations to be fully realised. I fully 100% believe that if you could fast forward to today's 20 year olds being OAP's then you would see the type of equality that's being sought, no further "pushing" required, just simple maintenance to ensure things don't go backwards. Pushing too hard runs the risk of utterly wrecking everything that HAS been achieved. In fact I think that's already happening.

But people don't want to wait generations, people for some reason believe that a decade represents "a long time"... In a human civilization that stretches back thousands of years. Progress is slow, progress takes time, progress might never directly benefit you at all, but benefit your children and grandchildren... failure to accept that and trying to make it "instant" is a massive, massive mistake; but a common feature of modern society.

People are quick to point out the "gaps" as if they can be instantly and permanently closed by "doing some sort of a thing I dunno what but someone has to do it". People want a 9% pay gap to be 0%, tomorrow. When the fact is, it doesn't matter if its 9%, so long as it's 8% in two years time, and so long as it doesn't slide to 10%. So long as the trajectory is right, trying to force it to speed up is a gamble.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's my point though; what I would call "real" equality, in terms of generally changing mindsets etc, have been around for a few decades and while that might seem like a long time... It isn't. Measures that are already in place will take entire generations to be fully realised. I fully 100% believe that if you could fast forward to today's 20 year olds being OAP's then you would see the type of equality that's being sought, no further "pushing" required, just simple maintenance to ensure things don't go backwards. Pushing too hard runs the risk of utterly wrecking everything that HAS been achieved. In fact I think that's already happening.

But people don't want to wait generations, people for some reason believe that a decade represents "a long time"... In a human civilization that stretches back thousands of years. Progress is slow, progress takes time, progress might never directly benefit you at all, but benefit your children and grandchildren... failure to accept that and trying to make it "instant" is a massive, massive mistake; but a common feature of modern society.

People are quick to point out the "gaps" as if they can be instantly and permanently closed by "doing some sort of a thing I dunno what but someone has to do it". People want a 9% pay gap to be 0%, tomorrow. When the fact is, it doesn't matter if its 9%, so long as it's 8% in two years time, and so long as it doesn't slide to 10%. So long as the trajectory is right, trying to force it to speed up is a gamble.

I completely disagree with that with how things are going today. I am a bit of a broken record on this subject but whilst activists are fighting to change the meaning of the word woman (whilst refusing to define what the new definition is meant to be) and things such as single sex spaces (men need their privacy from women also) are under attack. Apparently male and female are not real measurable things and people are fighting to change the law so that male people can just say they are female and thats that, and vice versa. Its taken so long to get to where we are, and it could be taken away in a second, and thats ****ing scary to me.

I think if things had remained along the trajectory they were on then this may have happened. Things did seem to be getting better and with time it would probably have continued that way. As more and more people bring up their kids to be respectful of the other sex (an d their own sex) and stuff. yes there would still be bad apples, there always are but it would have got better.

But this identity politics nonsense and pomo queer theory is a huge threat to womens (and mens to a lesser extent) rights. I do believe biology is important in certain areas of life and that we cannot ignore that.

The F1 girls stuff..I understand how that could benefit women in the long term (stopping the objectification of women is surely a good thing) but at the same time , if society just became less sexist then yes, this kind of thing would die out on its own. Issue is, if we are supposed to not 'see sex' (comes across very much like the 'I dont see colour' racists tbh) then we cannot see sexism, or fight it.

Not sure if I am on topic anymore here. But again, I do agree that things will get better in time. But only IF this pomo nonsense disappears. if it keeps being pushed so aggressively, then we will go backwards, and very fast. Hence this is the most important thing to me at the moment, pushing back against the nonsense. It does scare me. I may be a bit obsessed. But the logical conclusion of this 'sex is meaningless and not a real measureable thing that matters sometimes' stuff is that womens rights will disappear completely. Men will be affected by it all too, but to a much lesser extent.

[Redway]

Like someone else said first and second wave’s where it’s it.

As for me personally I’m more interested in seeing the subtle idea that a woman marries into a man’s family die out completely. That and the surname tho t. Patriarchy in the context of marriage and family.

[Marches]

Feminism is an outdated movement that has lost its meaning through some of the rediculous claims by the most vocal third wave feminists

We don’t need to have groups or movements like this anymore just advocate for rights and equal treatment of ALL people anyway I don’t see what’s wrong with that

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I’m going to start promoting smudgism as a thing actually...we should all be more smudgie....

Originally Posted by Withano

How is Smudgie supposed to be an individualist if we all turn more Smudgie?

Originally Posted by Ammi

...we’re going to foil her plans, Withano...shhhhh, I thought that one had slipped by without her noticing...

Originally Posted by Withano

I'll distract her

Originally Posted by Withano

My distraction plan is totally working, Ammi

Got my eye on you two.

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Beautiful

Feminism to me is about liberating women from oppression tbh. I know many will scoff at that and say women are not oppressed but I disagree. Yes it is much better for female people in this country than it is elsewhere but not many people truly see men and women as equal, so many still see women as something thats just there for mens amusement. Also womens rights (that we currently have) are almost constantly under attack (a good recent example if this push to eliminate female only spaces and services and let people 'self identify' their sex), so those claiming feminism is no longer needed are wrong.

I do think part of womens oppression is based in nature though. We are the weaker sex, we will be dominated in certain areas of life and thats pretty impossible to prevent. But I feel a lot of the way a lot of men behave towards women is 'taught' and not nature. From the second it is announced 'its a girl/boy' the child is treat differently. This needs to stop really, else we will never get anywhere. I try to bring up my kids exactly the same but even though I am consciously trying to do this, I do slip up as the behaviour expected of males and females is so deeply ingrained...its hard to shift.

This went on a bit longer than I planned it too tbh, and possibly went offtopic too. Its hard to talk ab out feminism on here with so many people waiting to jump on you if you say the wrong thing. From all angles.

Yeah people don’t see men and woman as equal, women are generally more protected and valued in society and actually quite a few ‘rights’ that men don’t have

But feminism won’t do anything about that despite saying they’re about equality, which baffles me as to why everyone campaigning for equality can’t all just like not label themselves and work together to make every human being truly equal

[MTVN]

I know the dictionary definition of feminism is just equality of the sexes but in practice it's now associated with a militancy that puts me off. I do find that hardcore feminists can be intolerant of other people's views on gender and they dont make it an inclusive movement. People get criticised for saying they are not feminists but if someone who's right of centre identifies as a feminist they'll often be told that they're not by feminist groups and that their politics are incompatible with it

[ethanjames]

for me feminism is equal rights whatever the gender identity!!!

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I know the dictionary definition of feminism is just equality of the sexes but in practice it's now associated with a militancy that puts me off. I do find that hardcore feminists can be intolerant of other people's views on gender and they dont make it an inclusive movement. People get criticised for saying they are not feminists but if someone who's right of centre identifies as a feminist they'll often be told that they're not by feminist groups and that their politics are incompatible with it

When I see posts like this It just reminds me of Muslims and ISIS, like Muslims are one thing, it’s a defined religion, just because ISIS say they are Muslims doesn’t mean they are when they act in the complete opposite way that Islam teaches

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Smithy

When I see posts like this It just reminds me of Muslims and ISIS, like Muslims are one thing, it’s a defined religion, just because ISIS say they are Muslims doesn’t mean they are when they act in the complete opposite way that Islam teaches

I suppose that's true but someone can still support equality of the sexes without identifying as a feminist whereas you can't follow Islam and not identify as a Muslim. 'Feminism' is just a word in this sense really that some people are happy to identify as and some people are not, it's not as powerful as someone's religion

[MTVN]

Admittedly this is quite an extreme example but it was a story this week, if I tried to tell this lot 'Oh yeah I'm a feminist too' I'd probably be met with a roundhouse kick

https://order-order.com/2018/01/29/f...sh-patriarchy/

Queer feminist fight club Femme Feral offers women and femme-identifying people a place to express their rage about the Conservative government through body-slams and dropkicks.”

[Alf]

It means hair dye and tattoos

[bots]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Admittedly this is quite an extreme example but it was a story this week, if I tried to tell this lot 'Oh yeah I'm a feminist too' I'd probably be met with a roundhouse kick

https://order-order.com/2018/01/29/f...sh-patriarchy/

ha ha

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Admittedly this is quite an extreme example but it was a story this week, if I tried to tell this lot 'Oh yeah I'm a feminist too' I'd probably be met with a roundhouse kick

https://order-order.com/2018/01/29/f...sh-patriarchy/

Well yes, these seem to be extremest nutters. Using feminism as an excuse for violence and being a dickhead. I would not say these people are feminists in any sense of the word tbh, though its not really my place to tell people they are not feminists I guess.

This to me comes across as quite similar to the religious extremists who use religion as an excuse for violence.

We (or normal people would not) would not judge an entire religion because of a few nutters surely. So the people who reckon feminists are all man hating loons who want women to rule the world and men eradicated completely...well those people are quite silly and tbh it sounds like they are just looking for an excuse to hate feminism in general.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, these seem to be extremest nutters. Using feminism as an excuse for violence and being a dickhead. I would not say these people are feminists in any sense of the word tbh, though its not really my place to tell people they are not feminists I guess.

This to me comes across as quite similar to the religious extremists who use religion as an excuse for violence.

We (or normal people would not) would not judge an entire religion because of a few nutters surely. So the people who reckon feminists are all man hating loons who want women to rule the world and men eradicated completely...well those people are quite silly and tbh it sounds like they are just looking for an excuse to hate feminism in general.

Did I not just say this

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Did I not just say this

Heh. Yes you did, sorry. I just waffled on in more words about it

[waterhog]

Originally Posted by lewis111

There's loads of debates as to wether Courtney can be a feminist because she's a man that dresses as a woman
People think Ann saying women are equal already doesn't make her a feminist

And obviously Donal Trump recent stated he wasn't a feminist

So what does the word and movement mean to you, and by your definition are you a feminist?

I am disappointed - if you was a true feminist - you would have let me go first lewis - chivalry is dead.

[Maru]

It means equal opportunity for women, but still not forgetting what it means to be a woman...

But if I'm honest, I'm not a fan of these labels and I feel like group identity should really be a thing of the past. Being proud of being a woman as an individual though is different because it's a descriptor, but I just don't think that we should be wearing labels as a badge to be included in "communities", etc... I used to think that was such a great thing, a great way to make your voice heard. However, that thinking actually leads to people being sheltered from the issues since once you are apart of the group, you have to "subscribe" to it's views... therefore if you go out of your way to make issues known within the group, your "card" can be pulled and it becomes taboo. It's just hegemony disguised as "equal rights"...

I think that's such an outdated way of doing things. It's just weird to me... that in the 90's, it was all about non-conformity, shedding stereotypes and getting rid of group think and eschewing labels... and now where we are in 2018, trying to get back into group-think and wearing labels and it's just such a huge step backwards imho. It seems like individualism is understanding a re-evaluation in our culture...

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

Like someone else said first and second wave’s where it’s it.

As for me personally I’m more interested in seeing the subtle idea that a woman marries into a man’s family die out completely. That and the surname tho t. Patriarchy in the context of marriage and family.

In most marriages I know, it seems more like the man joins the woman's family, than the other way around.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Maru

It means equal opportunity for women, but still not forgetting what it means to be a woman...

But if I'm honest, I'm not a fan of these labels and I feel like group identity should really be a thing of the past. Being proud of being a woman as an individual though is different because it's a descriptor, but I just don't think that we should be wearing labels as a badge to be included in "communities", etc... I used to think that was such a great thing, a great way to make your voice heard. However, that thinking actually leads to people being sheltered from the issues since once you are apart of the group, you have to "subscribe" to it's views... therefore if you go out of your way to make issues known within the group, your "card" can be pulled and it becomes taboo. It's just hegemony disguised as "equal rights"...

I think that's such an outdated way of doing things. It's just weird to me... that in the 90's, it was all about non-conformity, shedding stereotypes and getting rid of group think and eschewing labels... and now where we are in 2018, trying to get back into group-think and wearing labels and it's just such a huge step backwards imho. It seems like individualism is understanding a re-evaluation in our culture...

I agree Maru, I'd much rather be part of a community of a thousand different nuanced and personally considered views where everyone respectfully (or even non-respectfully!) shares them... Than one where everyone sings from the same hymn sheet and pats each other on the back for how correct they are.

That's one of my main gripes with these movements... You hear exactly the same buzzwords and phrases, said in the same way, in the same context, but coming from different people and I just think... How much of this is just echoed from the last thing you read on the topic? Are any of these your own words? Have you even really given it all that much thought?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier[B

;9849027]I agree Maru, I'd much rather be part of a community of a thousand different nuanced and personally considered views where everyone respectfully (or even non-respectfully!) shares them... Than one where everyone sings from the same hymn sheet and pats each other on the back for how correct they are.[/B]

That's one of my main gripes with these movements... You hear exactly the same buzzwords and phrases, said in the same way, in the same context, but coming from different people and I just think... How much of this is just echoed from the last thing you read on the topic? Are any of these your own words? Have you even really given it all that much thought?

Perfectly put

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Maru

It means equal opportunity for women, but still not forgetting what it means to be a woman...

But if I'm honest, I'm not a fan of these labels and I feel like group identity should really be a thing of the past. Being proud of being a woman as an individual though is different because it's a descriptor, but I just don't think that we should be wearing labels as a badge to be included in "communities", etc... I used to think that was such a great thing, a great way to make your voice heard. However, that thinking actually leads to people being sheltered from the issues since once you are apart of the group, you have to "subscribe" to it's views... therefore if you go out of your way to make issues known within the group, your "card" can be pulled and it becomes taboo. It's just hegemony disguised as "equal rights"...

I think that's such an outdated way of doing things. It's just weird to me... that in the 90's, it was all about non-conformity, shedding stereotypes and getting rid of group think and eschewing labels... and now where we are in 2018, trying to get back into group-think and wearing labels and it's just such a huge step backwards imho. It seems like individualism is understanding a re-evaluation in our culture...

Completely agree Maru. A big step backwards. Regressive - not ‘progressive’.

[Gstar]

Originally Posted by Firewire

We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller
We say to girls: "You can have ambition, but not too much
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful
Otherwise, you will threaten the man"
Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage
I am expected to make my life choices
Always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important
Now, marriage can be a source of joy and love and mutual support
But why do we teach girls to aspire to marriage
And we don't teach boys the same?
We raise girls to see each other as competitors
Not for jobs or for accomplishments, which I think can be a good thing
But for the attention of men
We teach girls that they cannot be sexual beings in the way that boys are
Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

[Livia]

I just watched The Big Question on TV, and one of the discussions was about feminism. And what struck me was this: Women have been oppressed by men for millennia. Things are changing now... we've come an awful long way. And now... men want to join in the discussion. Not just join in, they want to lead the discussion. While I watched the men on the show tell women what feminism is and how they should deal with it, I wondered what would happen if it was a discussion about racial oppression, and there were a bunch of white males in the front row saying, look, we understand your feelings of oppression... We know how that feels... we're going to help... and this is what we're going to do...