[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Surely thats emotional blackmail though?

You could just as easily ask do you want to risk your children being affected by another hit on the streets of the UK by not responding?

No one wants armed conflict, no one has suggested it yet as I understand but we have a military to be prepared to protect citizens.

If using military grade nerve agents on our soil on a busy street is not a reason to lock down and protect citizens then what is? (Disclaimer obviously if it can be proven to have been a government ordered hit)

Why emotional blackmail? It could become a reality. If we ever do go to war with Russia we will need a lot more than are disbanded armed services.
Why is it emotional blackmail when May has just walked us back into the bowels of a Cold War? This isn't some random country in the Middle East, its Russia, a country that's could quickly wipe us out.

Why wasn't plan B implemented? France, Italy and the Labour government are asking that same question.

I'm not saying something didn't need doing... clearly it did, but we've done this on a strong hunch and nothing more.

[arista]

Originally Posted by James

Who has said we are going to war? The response has been moderate if anything.

Very True
so far its tit for tat

https://news.sky.com/story/british-a...istry-11293252
23 British diplomats now expelled.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

As are your constant excuses for him!

I don’t think anyone has the right to confiscate private property from anyone other than if it was stolen or gained as the result of criminal activity.

You can’t just steal from people because they are rich. If they choose to leave their properties empty that is their business as it is their property. Or is the PC brigade going to dictate exactly what people can do with their property now to keep it.

Sorry, I'm not even going to get into this topic with someone like you because from what you just said, you clearly don't have any understanding about the problems with laundered Russian money on our shores.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

But we are still associating women with the ‘Home ‘ are we.

Women have equal status in the forces and otherwise so the women won’t just be kept safe at home. Neither would women in the forces want that as they are as courageous as their male counterparts. Or don’t you agree?

So you think the women in WW2 sat at home waiting for their husbands?!?!
The reason it became acceptable for women to go out and work after WW2 is because during WW2 they were expected to be part of the war effort. The built guns, made bullets, nursed the sick and dying and a whole lot more and for the first time in history, women got a taste for work and refused to go back to being the 'woman at home'.

Of course women are in the army and would partake and of course women would enlist but under the threat of war on our soil, its the men would be enlisted for front line service.

I know people will say we will all just be evaporated but that wasn't true in the Middle East. There are plenty more wars to be had around the world before we eventually blow ourselves up.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Sorry, I'm not even going to get into this topic with someone like you because from what you just said, you clearly don't have any understanding about the problems with laundered Russian money on our shores.

You patronising yet again - I forgot you know everything about everything.

Even when criminal activity is suspected - you still need proof positive before you start stealing the property of others.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

So you think the women in WW2 sat at home waiting for their husbands?!?!
The reason it became acceptable for women to go out and work after WW2 is because during WW2 they were expected to be part of the war effort. The built guns, made bullets, nursed the sick and dying and a whole lot more and for the first time in history, women got a taste for work and refused to go back to being the 'woman at home'.

Of course women are in the army and would partake and of course women would enlist but under the threat of war on our soil, its the men would be enlisted for front line service.

I know people will say we will all just be evaporated but that wasn't true in the Middle East. There are plenty more wars to be had around the world before we eventually blow ourselves up.

That will eventually change like everything else. There is no reason that women of a certain age who do not have children, or LGBTs come to that, can’t be enlisted in times of war. Some may not like the idea of that but that is part and parcel of equality. No pick and mix when it suits.

I am fully aware of what women did and didn’t do in WW2 thank you - mainly what they were allowed to do. Times have changed and many women would expect to be much more involved. Anything else would be sexism.

[DemolitionRed]

Even when criminal activity is suspected - you still need proof positive before you start stealing the property of others.

[QUOTE]

Nobody said otherwise. This was spoken about about more depth on a recent topic.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Even when criminal activity is suspected - you still need proof positive before you start stealing the property of others.

So on that note, should we be investigating every avenue of who poisoned those Russians? You know... plan B

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

I was gratified to see that NATO has backed us 100%. I wonder whether this will give May the impetus to invoke NATO's Article 5 on Collective Defence which states "‘the Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all’. It's only ever been used once before, by the USA after 9/11

Both the US and French changed their tune pretty fast from their initial reactions to the suggestion it was Russia, I did wonder if she'd mentioned Article 5 on the phone.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

So on that note, should we be investigating every avenue of who poisoned those Russians? You know... plan B

Well if you are quite happy to appear gullible and quite content to let the man take the p***. We all know it was hiim - he has form - no use crying wolf now.

And if in the by some tiny, minute chance he isn’t he is still accountable for letting people get their hands on it in the first place. But if you want to believe it go ahead.

[Brillopad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...-it-was-russia

A fair and reasoned assessment which is why so many have come out in support of May on this.

[DemolitionRed]

So now we have 23 British diplomats expelled from Russia with further threats from May and Putin.

The Chemical Weapons Act page 9, section 2, clearly states that evidence (as proof) must be available, so how is May refusing the Russian embassy requests to collect evidence?

[bots]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

So now we have 23 British diplomats expelled from Russia with further threats from May and Putin.

The Chemical Weapons Act page 9, section 2, clearly states that evidence (as proof) must be available, so how is May refusing the Russian embassy requests to collect evidence?

Genuine question here DR, why are you so keen to see things from a Russian perspective, when its UK citizens that have been attacked?

I lived and worked in Russia, have many good Russian friends, but I still side with the UK in the face of an outrageous attack

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Genuine question here DR, why are you so keen to see things from a Russian perspective, when its UK citizens that have been attacked?

I lived and worked in Russia, have many good Russian friends, but I still side with the UK in the face of an outrageous attack

Good question

1) I want to see things from all sides and not be blinded by the one sided hysteria.

2) I'm not going to roll over and believe everything that's said. I can't because different papers are saying different things. https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/13/w...ist/index.html Some papers are asking why there weren't further investigations and asking why Russia is being refused evidence whilst others are riding on the back of patriotism and saying May was absolutely right.

3) As I'm not the only person asking these questions (there's a lot of us) we don't see it as siding with Britain or Russia, we see it as an open and frank discussion with all questions answered.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Surely thats emotional blackmail though?

You could just as easily ask do you want to risk your children being affected by another hit on the streets of the UK by not responding?

No one wants armed conflict, no one has suggested it yet as I understand but we have a military to be prepared to protect citizens.

If using military grade nerve agents on our soil on a busy street is not a reason to lock down and protect citizens then what is? (Disclaimer obviously if it can be proven to have been a government ordered hit)

That's the point... It hasn't been proven, you can't condemn one man for saying what he did, even if every one else is throwing their hands up in outrage because at the minute he has every right to make that point as there is no evidence to the contrary.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's the point... It hasn't been proven, you can't condemn one man for saying what he did, even if every one else is throwing their hands up in outrage because at the minute he has every right to make that point as there is no evidence to the contrary.

Weren’t you accusing Russia of interfering in the American elections because you didn’t support Trump?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's the point... It hasn't been proven, you can't condemn one man for saying what he did, even if every one else is throwing their hands up in outrage because at the minute he has every right to make that point as there is no evidence to the contrary.

I didn't condemn him, I queried his use of language? As none of us or the media are privy to the intelligence gathered and no military action has been threatened to my knowledge I felt it was an inflammatory thing to say to the public. Not one of us outside of the government has a say in this and trying to whip up opposition by pulling on people's heartstrings seems wrong to me.....although the fear mongering from some tabloids also deserves derision too.

This whole situation is a mess, there are far too many what ifs, buts and maybes

[Tom4784]

The difference being the election business is and has been investigated and that situation isn't likely to be escalated further until the investigation is complete. I do think that Russia is behind this but I won't slate anyone for wanting to be cautious and verify the facts before we throw ourselves into a potential war situation.

I don't think people should surrender their views to 'get in line' with everyone else.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You have a one-track mind Brillo. This issue is not about May or Corbyn and the obsession (not just from you, from many people, including the tabloid media) with trying to make it about May/Corbyn/Tories/Labour politics is bizarre.

I think political leanings have a lot to do with it for some. Otherwise I don’t think they would give two hoots about Putin and whether he did it or not, especially as there is more than enough reason to believe he did.

I have my own opinion on who exactly has a one-track mind!

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Weren’t you accusing Russia of interfering in the American elections because you didn’t support Trump?

There has been media speculation around several elections and referendums that may have been influenced by AI and bots, I don't know where they originated.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I see your point but the trouble is that this fits into a long pattern of Russian behaviour which has been going on for years. I think everyone agrees now that they were behind Litvinienko but there's also been numerous suspicious deaths that they were probably responsible for both in this country and abroad. But every time it happens they just react with sarcasm and sneer at any suggestion they were involved. A lot of their reaction is pure trolling. It's not just assassinations either, look at stuff like the passenger plane that was shot down over Ukraine where everything pointed to it having been shot by the Russian backed rebels on the ground but Russia kept on denying everything and put forward a load of dodgy evidence that a Ukrainian jet had shot it down instead. And they've been caught trying to pass off video game footage as 'evidence' in the past as well

Basically they just can't be trusted to take any incident like this seriously so it's pointless to indulge any of their excuses

Great post as usual.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I didn't condemn him, I queried his use of language? As none of us or the media are privy to the intelligence gathered and no military action has been threatened to my knowledge I felt it was an inflammatory thing to say to the public. Not one of us outside of the government has a say in this and trying to whip up opposition by pulling on people's heartstrings seems wrong to me.....although the fear mongering from some tabloids also deserves derision too.

This whole situation is a mess, there are far too many what ifs, buts and maybes

It does give a little perspective to the situation though doesn't it?
Makes you rationalise a little better
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! .....YEAH!
WE SHOULDN'T STAND FOR IT!.... NO!

ALL YOUR KIDS SHOULD SIGN UP IMMEDIATELY!! .... er, hang on a minute :/

We shouldn't accept this rabble rousing reactionary politics, we need examination, discussion, evidence before there is a response.
All this 'we should get behind the govt' Why?

[Twosugars]

there won't be any war over this, any talk of a war is just hysteria

Russia sabotaged the Litvinienko investigation so I wouldn't be involving Russia in any investigation now. It's enough for UK to get confirmation from un chemical weapons inspectors who arrive on Tuesday.

[Kazanne]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=spartanntp

She's done what needed to be done I think.

[Northern Monkey]

This was most likely the Russian government and i think most people would agree including myself but I think it’s a perfectly reasonable position for people to question things with situations as volatile and important as this.Specially after Iraq.There’s always that 1% chance that there’s another explanation.Like a leak for instance.
I didn’t agree with Corbyn politicising this,going on about diplomat cuts but I don’t think anybody should be getting criticised and called unpatriotic for trying to look at this objectively.
Yes there will be silly conspiracy theories but i think they’re quite easy to weed out.