[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Me personally? A complete overhaul of the tragic western socioeconomic system that has lead to an underclass that is constantly embroiled in crime and violence.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to tackle that, though.

So in the meantime, if you're looking for a simple answer; creative and engaging community policing and engagement, which has been PROVEN to be effective in several violent US cities.

Personally T.S I'm 'fed up' with the hackneyed old cliches which are all too regularly 'trotted out' about 'the poor', the 'underprivileged', the 'underclass'.

For the most part, in today's WELFARE SOCIETY, it is B.S.

There DEFINITELY is a section of society who ARE struggling to exist who have slipped through the net of our 'Welfare system'; some elderly, some mentally 'vulnerable' and some who are timid and confused who are not au fait with the help which is available to alleviate their 'plight'.

NONE of the above though are likely to be involved in the type of crime which this thread is about.

A HUGE percentage of violent crime is NOT borne of NEED but GREED.

Organised GANG violent crime IS 'Working Class' crime only by virtue of the fact that it is perpetrated by so-called 'Working Class villains even though MOST of them claim benefits and have NEVER worked a day in their lives, and just as in Chicago in the 20's and ever since, it is usually the result of criminals fighting to protect 'Manors' and the immense profits from Drug dealing, People Smuggling, Prostitution, and other crimes.

Expensive mobile phones, trainers, and heavy gold chains and other bling, BMW's and other expensive cars are NOT the possessions of the 'Poor and needy 'underclass.

Black people and Immigrants figure PROMINENTLY amongst this class of violent crime perpetrators as they do amongst the teenagers perpetrating the knife crimes which this thread is about.

There is a link between violent crimes and run-down areas but it is NOT any deprivation - financial or otherwise - which drives the criminal elements within those areas, no more than it is which drives multi-millionaires in Manhatten or Belgravia to commit multi-million-pound frauds, it is GREED.

As some other member pointed out, the VAST MAJORITY of residents within those 'deprived' areas remain law-abiding and by virtue of so doing do NOT enjoy the lifestyle of their criminal neighbours.

Any proposed correlation between violent crime and economic deprivation is bleeding heart, neo-Liberal B.S in my opinion.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Personally T.S I'm 'fed up' with the hackneyed old cliches which are all too regularly 'trotted out' about 'the poor', the 'underprivileged', the 'underclass'.

For the most part, in today's WELFARE SOCIETY, it is B.S.

There DEFINITELY is a section of society who ARE struggling to exist who have slipped through the net of our 'Welfare system'; some elderly, some mentally 'vulnerable' and some who are timid and confused who are not au fait with the help which is available to alleviate their 'plight'.

NONE of the above though are likely to be involved in the type of crime which this thread is about.

A HUGE percentage of violent crime is NOT borne of NEED but GREED.

Organised GANG violent crime IS 'Working Class' crime only by virtue of the fact that it is perpetrated by so-called 'Working Class villains even though MOST of them claim benefits and have NEVER worked a day in their lives, and just as in Chicago in the 20's and ever since, it is usually the result of criminals fighting to protect 'Manors' and the immense profits from Drug dealing, People Smuggling, Prostitution, and other crimes.

Expensive mobile phones, trainers, and heavy gold chains and other bling, BMW's and other expensive cars are NOT the possessions of the 'Poor and needy 'underclass.

Black people and Immigrants figure PROMINENTLY amongst this class of violent crime perpetrators as they do amongst the teenagers perpetrating the knife crimes which this thread is about.

There is a link between violent crimes and run-down areas but it is NOT any deprivation - financial or otherwise - which drives the criminal elements within those areas, no more than it is which drives multi-millionaires in Manhatten or Belgravia to commit multi-million-pound frauds, it is GREED.

As some other member pointed out, the VAST MAJORITY of residents within those 'deprived' areas remain law-abiding and by virtue of so doing do NOT enjoy the lifestyle of their criminal neighbours.

Any proposed correlation between violent crime and economic deprivation is bleeding heart, neo-Liberal B.S in my opinion.

This is where it starts to get really complicated though Kirk. You're right, it IS greed rather than need, but that's not the whole story. Also to claim that there's no link between the wealth levels in an area an crime is simply false; it's not an opinion, the statistics speak for themselves. Lower average income = higher crime in an area, and this has been the case throughout history.

But no its not need. Even if you take drugs out of the equation (need/greed with drugs I guess is a WHOLE other debate), you have to look at the question, why are people so greedy? And the answer for me is, our world is set up for greed. Our world is ALL about consumerism, and many people are just spiritually void... We're constantly hammered with advertising, both overt and subliminal, that says "you need X! You NEED Y! You REALLY REALLY need Z!" - most of it crap that no one actually needs. But that combined with this toxic consumerist idea that "the more flashy stuff you have, the better you are doing in life" creates real issues.

Take people who are down and out and miserable (for a whole HOST of reasons, but often sue to hopelessness) and tell them that they'll feel better if they have more "stuff", and you end up with dejected, morally depleted people who just want to "take stuff".

Again like the other thread... It's not really bleeding heart. I don't want to scoop these little cherubs up and give 'em a hug or anything like that. I just know that logically, the best way to tackle crime is to try to find out why people become criminals in the first place and nip it in the bud, rather than waiting until they're already on the streets carrying weapons and then try to tackle it there. Realistically, by that point its too late,you can stop them hurting someone today but when it comes down to it, that is still a violent PERSON willing to hurt other people for their own gain, and taking a knife away from them doesn't solve that problem.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is where it starts to get really complicated though Kirk. You're right, it IS greed rather than need, but that's not the whole story. Also to claim that there's no link between the wealth levels in an area an crime is simply false; it's not an opinion, the statistics speak for themselves. Lower average income = higher crime in an area, and this has been the case throughout history.

But no its not need. Even if you take drugs out of the equation (need/greed with drugs I guess is a WHOLE other debate), you have to look at the question, why are people so greedy? And the answer for me is, our world is set up for greed. Our world is ALL about consumerism, and many people are just spiritually void... We're constantly hammered with advertising, both overt and subliminal, that says "you need X! You NEED Y! You REALLY REALLY need Z!" - most of it crap that no one actually needs. But that combined with this toxic consumerist idea that "the more flashy stuff you have, the better you are doing in life" creates real issues.

Take people who are down and out and miserable (for a whole HOST of reasons, but often sue to hopelessness) and tell them that they'll feel better if they have more "stuff", and you end up with dejected, morally depleted people who just want to "take stuff".

Again like the other thread... It's not really bleeding heart. I don't want to scoop these little cherubs up and give 'em a hug or anything like that. I just know that logically, the best way to tackle crime is to try to find out why people become criminals in the first place and nip it in the bud, rather than waiting until they're already on the streets carrying weapons and then try to tackle it there. Realistically, by that point its too late,you can stop them hurting someone today but when it comes down to it, that is still a violent PERSON willing to hurt other people for their own gain, and taking a knife away from them doesn't solve that problem.

...I agree with your last paragraph particularly, TS...in terms of ‘gang culture’ and the environment some young people are raised in..?...yeah, stopping and searching may remove and ‘prevent’..a weapon being carried on specific occasions ....but it’s waiting until that weapon is being carried though so not really ‘preventing’....early intervention before gangs are joined etc and before weapons are carried is the only possible prevent really...which can be helped a lot with a focus on community policing in areas...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is where it starts to get really complicated though Kirk. You're right, it IS greed rather than need, but that's not the whole story. Also to claim that there's no link between the wealth levels in an area an crime is simply false; it's not an opinion, the statistics speak for themselves. Lower average income = higher crime in an area, and this has been the case throughout history.

But no its not need. Even if you take drugs out of the equation (need/greed with drugs I guess is a WHOLE other debate), you have to look at the question, why are people so greedy? And the answer for me is, our world is set up for greed. Our world is ALL about consumerism, and many people are just spiritually void... We're constantly hammered with advertising, both overt and subliminal, that says "you need X! You NEED Y! You REALLY REALLY need Z!" - most of it crap that no one actually needs. But that combined with this toxic consumerist idea that "the more flashy stuff you have, the better you are doing in life" creates real issues.

Take people who are down and out and miserable (for a whole HOST of reasons, but often sue to hopelessness) and tell them that they'll feel better if they have more "stuff", and you end up with dejected, morally depleted people who just want to "take stuff".

Again like the other thread... It's not really bleeding heart. I don't want to scoop these little cherubs up and give 'em a hug or anything like that. I just know that logically, the best way to tackle crime is to try to find out why people become criminals in the first place and nip it in the bud, rather than waiting until they're already on the streets carrying weapons and then try to tackle it there. Realistically, by that point its too late,you can stop them hurting someone today but when it comes down to it, that is still a violent PERSON willing to hurt other people for their own gain, and taking a knife away from them doesn't solve that problem.

^ A GREAT post, T.S - and I DO agree with a lot of your points.