[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No, stop and search people if there is good reason to do so, such as indication that something is being concealed, a tip off, or other suspicious behavior, just like pulling over a car. As I've already said three or four times on this thread.

Will we put cameras in your living room too, Livia?

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Top and bottom of it all is the police are too scared of being called racist ,so they've got sloppy ,time to toughen up, and seeing as most of these stabbings are being done by black youths with covered faces ,its THEM the police must target and if the do gooders moan then so be it

I agree. And many of the people who called for an end to stop and search are the same people now saying it should be widened. And if the black community is being targeted, well, the fact is that it is mostly black people who are stabbing each other.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Top and bottom of it all is the police are too scared of being called racist ,so they've got sloppy ,time to toughen up, and seeing as most of these stabbings are being done by black youths with covered faces ,its THEM the police must target and if the do gooders moan then so be it

If someone is behaving suspiciously / covering their face / clearly concealing something then by all means, treat that person with suspicion, no matter who they are or what colour they are. Perhaps police are stand-offish if it then seems like they're targeting a disproportionate number of one group, worried of being accused of racial profiling even if they are not.

But that doesn't translate into "Just search more people at random, especially black kids!" if there's no indication that there's a good reason to do so?

The racial profiling of people who are doing nothing but minding their own business is a very real problem, and it LEADS to even bigger problems. Pretending that this isn't the case is just stubborn and dangerous.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

You would be much safer in your home if there was a camera in your living room hooked up to the police.

I'm trying to illustrate that (I hope...) you WOULDN'T want that, even though it makes you safer, because it would be an invasion of privacy... so there clearly is "a line" somewhere, where we say "I don't want that to happen even though it would make everyone safer".

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well... Good for them? What heroes, selflessly passing over their liberty to the government. Shall we set up cameras in their living rooms too? I mean... Why not? If they're not doing anything wrong, then they have nothing to fear!

Perhaps it could be some sort of voluntary programme. All of you upstanding, morally better folks can have a symbol to identify you as willing to be searched - perhaps a white hat, or a nice tall horse - and then you can be searched and monitored, and the rest of us who value the central pillars of freedom can continue about our day unmolested by the authorities.

Not sure what your issue is your every move is followed anyway by cameras when you are out, and on your PC when you are at home

I wouldn't call a pat down being molested, that is hysterical on your part

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You would be much safer in your home if there was a camera in your living room hooked up to the police.

I'm trying to illustrate that (I hope...) you WOULDN'T want that, even though it makes you safer, because it would be an invasion of privacy... so there clearly is "a line" somewhere, where we say "I don't want that to happen even though it would make everyone safer".

The occupants of my house are not trying to cut lumps off each other so your analogy is shaky at best.

Maybe the police could just say, deal with it yourselves then. Because you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not sure what your issue is your every move is followed anyway by cameras when you are out

Yes but they don't stop you, touch you, or to her wise interfere with you in any way.

and on your PC when you are at home

You are incorrect there

I wouldn't call a pat down being molested, that is hysterical on your part

Again, good for you, your body is your body so feel free to submit to whatever you want to submit to. You don't get to decide that for me or for anyone else. My body my choice, Cherie.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but they don't stop you, touch you, or to her wise interfere with you in any way.





You are incorrect there




Again, good for you, your body is your body so feel free to submit to whatever you want to submit to. You don't get to decide that for me or for anyone else. My body my choice, Cherie.

So what's your answer then, TS? How are you going to stop what is essentially black on black crime, without stopping any black people? I'd be so interested to hear...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

The occupants of my house are not trying to cut lumps off each other so your analogy is shaky at best.

Maybe the police could just say, deal with it yourselves then. Because you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

I'm not for a second trying to pretend that there isn't a problem with knife crime or that nothing should be done, I'm just saying that edging towards authoritarianism is unlikely to be a good solution and comes with a whole HOST of other problems. The whole "If we stop and search more people and get their knives, less people will be stabbed!" thing seems like a massive over-simplification of a complex issue. Like trying to perform spinal surgery with a claw hammer.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but they don't stop you, touch you, or to her wise interfere with you in any way.





You are incorrect there




Again, good for you, your body is your body so feel free to submit to whatever you want to submit to. You don't get to decide that for me or for anyone else. My body my choice, Cherie.

You don’t need to quote ‘my body, my choice’ to women - they have had to scream that for decades to defend themselves from rape’ sexual assault’ the right to an abortion etc - they are pretty much experts on that one.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You don’t need to quote ‘my body, my choice’ to women - they have had to scream that for decades to defend themselves from rape’ sexual assault’ the right to an abortion etc - they are pretty much experts on that one.

Well said, sister!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

So what's your answer then, TS? How are you going to stop what is essentially black on black crime, without stopping any black people? I'd be so interested to hear...

I was actually saying that the police SHOULDN'T be afraid to stop black people, if its black people who are behaving suspiciously. I'm saying stop whoever is suspicious. And also that simple "being black" is not a measure of suspicion.

As for a "solution", well, for a start, we're not talking about "stopping it" are we. Realistically, stop and search isn't going to stop knife crime. Would be great if something could, but nothing will. The aim is to REDUCE knife crime and crime in general, and there are clearly countless more creative ways to get knives (and kids in general) off the streets than authoritarian policing?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You don’t need to quote ‘my body, my choice’ to women - they have had to scream that for decades to defend themselves from rape’ sexual assault’ the right to an abortion etc - they are pretty much experts on that one.

Well then they should understand.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not for a second trying to pretend that there isn't a problem with knife crime or that nothing should be done, I'm just saying that edging towards authoritarianism is unlikely to be a good solution and comes with a whole HOST of other problems. The whole "If we stop and search more people and get their knives, less people will be stabbed!" thing seems like a massive over-simplification of a complex issue. Like trying to perform spinal surgery with a claw hammer.

So what would YOU do to help stop it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

So what would YOU do to help stop it.

Me personally? A complete overhaul of the tragic western socioeconomic system that has lead to an underclass that is constantly embroiled in crime and violence.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to tackle that, though.

So in the meantime, if you're looking for a simple answer; creative and engaging community policing and engagement, which has been PROVEN to be effective in several violent US cities.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not for a second trying to pretend that there isn't a problem with knife crime or that nothing should be done, I'm just saying that edging towards authoritarianism is unlikely to be a good solution and comes with a whole HOST of other problems. The whole "If we stop and search more people and get their knives, less people will be stabbed!" thing seems like a massive over-simplification of a complex issue. Like trying to perform spinal surgery with a claw hammer.

Well, I'd say I don't know enough about how the police operate to tro to tell them their job. They're the ones who have to face people who may be armed, and I don't want to tie their hands for fear of upsetting people. Take a leaf out of the Jews' book! You can be as big an arsehole to them as you like, and it doesn't matter. Even when the problem is with one of the two leading political parties! But don't ask a young black man to empty his pockets.

The black community must be fed up with burying their young men (and women), while white people stand round wringing their hands, afraid of being called racist.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well then they should understand.

Not necessarily - I don’t see how stop and search could be anywhere near as intrusive and upsetting as any of the examples I gave.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Me personally? A complete overhaul of the tragic western socioeconomic system that has lead to an underclass that is constantly embroiled in crime and violence.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to tackle that, though.

So in the meantime, if you're looking for a simple answer; creative and engaging community policing and engagement, which has been PROVEN to be effective in several violent US cities.

Just in this country? Or are you taking on the whole world?

And if you want to see real underclass, you need to go east, not west.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Not necessarily - I don’t see how stop and search could be anywhere near as intrusive and upsetting as any of the examples I gave.

It's a slippery slope that doesn't need to be complicated, surely.

"No one gets to tell anyone else what they shouldn't and should be OK with when it comes to their body and personal space."

That is ALL that needs to be said.

Originally Posted by Livia

Just in this country? Or are you taking on the whole world?

And if you want to see real underclass, you need to go east, not west.

The whole world, but then, most of the world has been heavily affected by the Western socioeconomic system siphoning up the majority of the money and resources.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Me personally? A complete overhaul of the tragic western socioeconomic system that has lead to an underclass that is constantly embroiled in crime and violence.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to tackle that, though.

So in the meantime, if you're looking for a simple answer; creative and engaging community policing and engagement, which has been PROVEN to be effective in several violent US cities.

I don't fully agree with that,some youths do not listen,do not want to be part of society,they want something for nothing and get it to a certain extent,they all have much more than some people who live quite a happy and peaceful life,a lot is down to parenting or lack of,but not always some kids just like to be intimidating and violent,I would lock them up for a few months if they were found with weapons if stop and search doesn't work.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Me personally? A complete overhaul of the tragic western socioeconomic system that has lead to an underclass that is constantly embroiled in crime and violence.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to tackle that, though.

So in the meantime, if you're looking for a simple answer; creative and engaging community policing and engagement, which has been PROVEN to be effective in several violent US cities.

Being poor doesn't make people carry knives and want to attack and kill other people. It is very much a case of morality or lack thereof

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I agree. And many of the people who called for an end to stop and search are the same people now saying it should be widened. And if the black community is being targeted, well, the fact is that it is mostly black people who are stabbing each other.

Yes thats spot on

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Being poor doesn't make people carry knives and want to attack and kill other people. It is very much a case of morality or lack thereof

Are you suggesting that levels of violent crime aren't linked to the economic status of an area? It doesn't MAKE people engage in criminal or violent activity, no, but it does increase the likelihood. That is just a flat out statistical fact?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a slippery slope that doesn't need to be complicated, surely.

"No one gets to tell anyone else what they shouldn't and should be OK with when it comes to their body and personal space."

That is ALL that needs to be said. I


The whole world, but then, most of the world has been heavily affected by the Western socioeconomic system siphoning up the majority of the money and resources.

Maybe it is a slippery slope - that gets abused by people such as students demanding ‘safe spaces’ at uni. There will always be those that take it too far.

I believe a good measure of the potential outcomes for the majority for any do’s or dont’s in these situations is what really matters ie Do - preventing crimes such as murder against, Don’t - inconvenience or taking personal offence.

In any such situation there will always be disagreement but the safety of the majority should usually be the deciding factor.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Are you suggesting that levels of violent crime aren't linked to the economic status of an area? It doesn't MAKE people engage in criminal or violent activity, no, but it does increase the likelihood. That is just a flat out statistical fact?

Im sure there are a lot of law abiding people in the places you talk about, who go about their daily lives in a civilised way .. Opening a youth club isn't going to solve anything