[Zippy]

Originally Posted by angus58

If you have decided to follow a religion you cannot just cherry pick the bits you agree with and ignore the bits don't.

I

Are you effing serious? Thats EXACTLY what most religious folk do. Selective reading. Truth is you can pick bits out of the bible to justify or condemn anything.

And where does it say in the bible; thou shall molest the choir boys?

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Are you effing serious? Thats EXACTLY what most religious folk do. Selective reading. Truth is you can pick bits out of the bible to justify or condemn anything.

And where does it say in the bible; thou shall molest the choir boys?

Seems you missed my point completely. So I will explain what I mean in detail, albeit this is only my personal opinion. Every single religion has its own belief system and "scriptures". Therefore it is every individual's personal choice to select that religion (or denomination thereof) that jives with their own beliefs, inclinations, moral compass whatever. Therefore a gay person has the same freedom of choice to believe or not believe in whatever a particular religion dictates.

What you don't do is CHOOSE to follow a faith or religion which is quite clearly AGAINST your particular path in life and then bleat and whinge about how it's discriminatory. There are plenty of Christian denominations that condone women priests, and just as many that don't. There are plenty of Christian denominations that condone gay marriage and just as many that don't. It's not like there's not a custom made religion for everybody since there are reportedly over 38000 denominations that ALL consider themselves Christian, so basically the cherry picking has already been done.

By the way I am not religious at all which is why I didn't get married in a Church, nor did I have my children christened since it would have been meaningless and hypocritical. But just because I am not religious doesn't mean I don't respect the right of others to believe what the hell they like.

As regards the molestation of choir boys, I think you'll find that's a given in the Catholic faith in which I was brought up till the age of 16 when I decided I could not believe in the virgin birth or some man in a frock "forgiving" my sins just so long as I spouted a hail mary or two. Like the legal system, the Law is nothing to do with justice, and Religion is often nothing to do with morality.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by angus58

Seems you missed my point completely. So I will explain what I mean in detail, albeit this is only my personal opinion. Every single religion has its own belief system and "scriptures". Therefore it is every individual's personal choice to select that religion (or denomination thereof) that jives with their own beliefs, inclinations, moral compass whatever. Therefore a gay person has the same freedom of choice to believe or not believe in whatever a particular religion dictates.

What you don't do is CHOOSE to follow a faith or religion which is quite clearly AGAINST your particular path in life and then bleat and whinge about how it's discriminatory. There are plenty of Christian denominations that condone women priests, and just as many that don't. There are plenty of Christian denominations that condone gay marriage and just as many that don't. It's not like there's not a custom made religion for everybody since there are reportedly over 38000 denominations that ALL consider themselves Christian, so basically the cherry picking has already been done.

By the way I am not religious at all which is why I didn't get married in a Church, nor did I have my children christened since it would have been meaningless and hypocritical. But just because I am not religious doesn't mean I don't respect the right of others to believe what the hell they like.

As regards the molestation of choir boys, I think you'll find that's a given in the Catholic faith in which I was brought up till the age of 16 when I decided I could not believe in the virgin birth or some man in a frock "forgiving" my sins just so long as I spouted a hail mary or two. Like the legal system, the Law is nothing to do with justice, and Religion is often nothing to do with morality.

Ah but what if you were brought up in that faith, like I have been??

This is where it gets tricky.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by angus58

He said HE would not conduct a marriage ceremony between a gay couple as this would compromise his Christian beliefs and he is entitled to that stance. It has nothing to do with homophobia. I loathe any type of discrimination where it is unmerited, but in the case of religion which is a personal choice I do not see why someone should have to compromise their faith to accommodate the often secular opinions of others. There are plenty of other Christian demoninations who feel the same way, and would not entertain a gay marriage. Nobody has said gay people cannot get married if they so wish. A lot of ministers will not marry straight people who are not regular churchgoers, and quite right too. The church isn't there as a backdrop to your wedding pics, it should mean something, otherwise go do the deed in a registry office (as I did as I'm not a hypocrite).

If a gay couple want a religious ceremony one would have to ask WHY? when it so clearly states in the bible that homosexuality is not condoned. If you have decided to follow a religion you cannot just cherry pick the bits you agree with and ignore the bits don't.

I never said anything about homophobia. All I'm saying is that (even if it does go against his church) I don't really think you can say you accept gay people, and then not allow them equal rights with straight people.

And, I know you can't cherry pick pieces of your religion. I'm Catholic, and I feel that because I'm gay my religion conflicts with who I am -- I feel that because the Catholic church has such a backwards view towards not only homosexuality, but contraception too, that I cannot be confirmed. Don't get me wrong though, those are the parts of my religion I dislike, I love being Catholic lol

But if I were to go to church for Christmas/Easter then I would go to a Catholic church though.

[starry]

Marriage for some people is a religious thing and not just a social custom.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by starry

Marriage for some people is a religious thing and not just a social custom.

Thats very true. Personally I don't think marriage is that significant, after all its just a piece of paper saying you are in a relationship with someone. But because I'm gay, I think we should have equal rights and be allowed to marry one another, I mean love is love right??

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

i dont agree with any marriage total ****ing waste of time imo

[_Seth]

To me, anyone who doesn't support gay marriage is a ****ing idiot.

[Fish_Fingers]

Originally Posted by Phlip

To me, anyone who doesn't support gay marriage is a fucking idiot.

Ok, so you support the whole "agree-with-me-or-you're-scum" argument?

[Bigbrofan25]

He is a homophobic bigot I am afraid

Civil marriage between to people of the same sex is fine Gays these days have equal right in this country I find this kind of homophobia discusting in 21st century britain its seems like its become the new racism

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Bigbrofan25

He is a homophobic bigot I am afraid

Civil marriage between to people of the same sex is fine Gays these days have equal right in this country I find this kind of homophobia discusting in 21st century britain its seems like its become the new racism

[Bigbrofan25]

Originally Posted by Me!

I support you and all gay people with this even though I am straight myself I have no problem with gays at all and I mean what I say

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Bigbrofan25

I support you and all gay people with this even though I am straight myself I have no problem with gays at all and I mean what I say

Thanks! Its nice to hear that once in a while!

[Bigbrofan25]

Originally Posted by Me!

Thanks! Its nice to hear that once in a while!

You are welcome

[_Seth]

Originally Posted by Bigbrofan25

He is a homophobic bigot I am afraid

Civil marriage between to people of the same sex is fine Gays these days have equal right in this country I find this kind of homophobia discusting in 21st century britain its seems like its become the new racism

Gay marriage isn't allowed in Britain - just some dumbass civil partnership crap. And homophobia was just as disgusting as in any other century.

[Bigbrofan25]

Originally Posted by Phlip

Gay marriage isn't allowed in Britain - just some dumbass civil partnership crap. And homophobia was just as disgusting as in any other century.

I am aware of this I have a gay friend who feels very strongly about this matter

The fact of the matter is if racism can be put to one side so can homophobia It shouldn`t be mainstream these days its wrong

[starry]

Marriage to me is just a social custom so it's not a big deal to me. For others though it may go against their beliefs. I don't think it's about being a 'homophobe'. After all if everyone was homosexual there would be no human race it would just die out, lol. I don't agree with homosexual adoption so much, at least I think priority should be given to heterosexual couples as a child has a right to have both a mother and a father if possible.

[MrWong]

Originally Posted by starry

Marriage to me is just a social custom so it's not a big deal to me. For others though it may go against their beliefs. I don't think it's about being a 'homophobe'. After all if everyone was homosexual there would be no human race it would just die out, lol. I don't agree with homosexual adoption so much, at least I think priority should be given to heterosexual couples as a child has a right to have both a mother and a father if possible.

I think a child has a right to be loved.

Whether that's with mum and dad, dad and dad or mum and mum.

Straight parents don't have the monopoly on good parenting you know.

[starry]

Originally Posted by MrWong

I think a child has a right to be loved.

Whether that's with mum and dad, dad and dad or mum and mum.

Straight parents don't have the monopoly on good parenting you know.

Yeh, but an example for a child from a mother AND a father I think is quite useful, and really that would be the case in a normal conception of a child (which would obviously be between a man and a woman, with sperm and ovaries). That's just the facts of life, hard to avoid really lol.

I assume marriage was originally established as an institution to promote a stable environment for development of a family. Nowadays it can mean other things. Of course societies are different over time and in different places, but children are still conceived in the same way. People can have whatever relationships they want but it's logical to expect that the normal situation for a child is to have both mother and father, after all that is what they were born with.

[kisywisy]

Originally Posted by starry

Yeh, but an example for a child from a mother AND a father I think is quite useful, and really that would be the case in a normal conception of a child (which would obviously be between a man and a woman, with sperm and ovaries). That's just the facts of life, hard to avoid really lol.

I assume marriage was originally established as an institution to promote a stable environment for development of a family. Nowadays it can mean other things. Of course societies are different over time and in different places, but children are still conceived in the same way. People can have whatever relationships they want but it's logical to expect that the normal situation for a child is to have both mother and father, after all that is what they were born with.

i see your point, but you don't have to be in a relationship to concieve a child.
personally, i see no harm in gay couples raising children. no real evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Speedster]

Originally Posted by MrWong

I think a child has a right to be loved.

Whether that's with mum and dad, dad and dad or mum and mum.

Straight parents don't have the monopoly on good parenting you know.

Very *********g true, there are plenty of hetrosexual parents who abuse their kids all over the country and probably the world. Hetrosexual parent does not mean great parent.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Speedster

Very *********g true, there are plenty of hetrosexual parents who abuse their kids all over the country and probably the world. Hetrosexual parent does not mean great parent.

You only have to look at the vile Mc Canns to see that !

[starry]

Originally Posted by Speedster

Very *********g true, there are plenty of hetrosexual parents who abuse their kids all over the country and probably the world. Hetrosexual parent does not mean great parent.

Nobody said it did. Similarly a homosexual parent doesn't mean a good parent either. But if it is a choice between a 'good' heterosexual couple and a 'good' homosexual couple as a parent then I think the first should get priority.

[stonedape]

Originally Posted by starry

Marriage to me is just a social custom so it's not a big deal to me. For others though it may go against their beliefs. I don't think it's about being a 'homophobe'. After all if everyone was homosexual there would be no human race it would just die out, lol. I don't agree with homosexual adoption so much, at least I think priority should be given to heterosexual couples as a child has a right to have both a mother and a father if possible.

Should we also give priority to straight couples that reinforce traditional gender roles over those that send "mixed messages" like teh gaes? Like butch women who are into cars and sports, or effeminate men into musicals and fashion? Or is opposing genitalia the only criteria, regardless of behavior?

breeders have precedent. end of.

Should infertile straight couples get married? Couples over the age of 50?

There are more proslavery verses in the Bible than antigay verses, yet people managed to look beyond so many stupid bits and accept them as "products of their time" we've moved beyond. What people freak out about morally has mostly to do with how you were raised and little to do with the Bible, which I doubt David's read.

His interpretation of Christianity is already so loose, the fact that he's strict on this issue makes him seem even more douchey than a traditional evangelical.

[starry]

Originally Posted by stonedape

Should we also give priority to straight couples that reinforce traditional gender roles over those that send "mixed messages" like teh gaes? Like butch women who are into cars and sports, or effeminate men into musicals and fashion? Or is opposing genitalia the only criteria, regardless of behavior?


Should infertile straight couples get married? Couples over the age of 50?

There are more proslavery verses in the Bible than antigay verses, yet people managed to look beyond so many stupid bits and accept them as "products of their time" we've moved beyond. What people freak out about morally has mostly to do with how you were raised and little to do with the Bible, which I doubt David's read.

His interpretation of Christianity is already so loose, the fact that he's strict on this issue makes him seem even more douchey than a traditional evangelical.

I was just saying what marriage was originally probably established for, as I have also made clear it's function has changed considerably over time. Religious people take the older view of it I suppose.

Of course women and men do not have to fit into specific roles, however in general they are different kinds of role models for a child in any society where there are clear differences between men and women (physical and biological ones for example).

I think people confuse sexual equality where people can do what they want in bed (not altogether new, previous societies have had it) and a child's rights which some people I suppose don't value over their own desires.