[brian3]

Originally Posted by Abhorsen

You do also realise that men and women who advocate burkas think that British women are immoral for not wearing them, and as such that is actually an insult to British men and women.

How do you know that. A 5 minuet interview with a couple of extremist on the news

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Abhorsen

You might want to check for flaws in your thinking. For a start our head of state is the Queen, she is the head of the Church of England, that make's Britain a Christian nation and not the so called ' non denominational democracy' that you suggest. In fact, people living in Britain are subjects, and by agreeing to such you agree to be Christian or not oppose the ruling Christian authority. It's only because the Queen chooses to allow other faiths in Britain that they are allowed to live here.

What has happened is that Britain has become too lenient and as such our culture is not shown respect by other cultures.

Actually, it is exactly your apathy which typifies the problem.

You do also realise that men and women who advocate burkas think that British women are immoral for not wearing them, and as such that is actually an insult to British men and women.

The Queen doesn't choose anything as she holds no de facto authority over this country and only exists as a ceremonial head of state. We live in a multifaith society and also a democracy where people are permitted to follow any religion, ideology or philosophy they like. Live and let live.

[red]

Originally Posted by Abhorsen

Why not?

If you go to certain muslim countries, if you are a woman, you would be expected by law to cover your head, shoulders legs etc. BY LAW, because that is their culture - regardless of YOUR religious or cultural beliefs. Therefore, our laws, in Britain, should reflect our cultural values. A typical woman in Britain does NOT wear a Burka.

i have to agree 100% ^even though im originally from the midd-east

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Abhorsen

Wow, how eloquent. LOL.

You have obviously just fallen out of bed, after dossing all day and couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread.

'Kicking' back at the *man* while dossing on the dole are you? Or still living off Mum and Dad?

You have taken the quote out of context and made yourself look stupid.

This isn't about the Queen. Grow up.

The assumption being that only soap dodging crusties don't like the monarchy?

I read the whole thread, and I know it's not about The Queen. I just decided to comment on that little part anyway because it made me chuckle. You seem to have this huge misunderstanding of how forums work. See ... people generally post opinions without having to pend approval from you to see does it 'fit' in the thread or should they have 'bothered' to post it.

I got a job in HMV. I'm not quite an astrophysicist but if you pop in I can get you a 20% discount on some Michael Ball CD's.

Helmet.

[Jords]

Originally Posted by Abhorsen

Why not?

If you go to certain muslim countries, if you are a woman, you would be expected by law to cover your head, shoulders legs etc. BY LAW, because that is their culture - regardless of YOUR religious or cultural beliefs. Therefore, our laws, in Britain, should reflect our cultural values. A typical woman in Britain does NOT wear a Burka.

I never knew this, and taking that into consideration, yeah it should be banned.

[Boothy]

Really hope this happens. I can't see the difference really between me going to town in a balaclava and a Muslim woman going in a burka, except the burka is considered religious. Many Muslim women get by by just wearing a headscarf, why can't they all? At the end of the day, they've come to England, they should respect our laws and culture. An English woman wouldn't be allowed to wear a bikini in a Muslim country.

[Shaun]

I'm on the fence with this one - I agree with Dezzy's point that it's almost like taking away a freedom to tackle with a religion's abuse of freedoms.

But then, burkas are so 1985. So to Hell with 'em.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Boothy

Really hope this happens. I can't see the difference really between me going to town in a balaclava and a Muslim woman going in a burka, except the burka is considered religious. Many Muslim women get by by just wearing a headscarf, why can't they all? At the end of the day, they've come to England, they should respect our laws and culture. An English woman wouldn't be allowed to wear a bikini in a Muslim country.

I believe a balaclava is also considered religious in the Muslim faith. They seem to parade around in them all the time.

[InOne]

[brian3]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I think the principle of them abiding by our laws is very important! It isn't just about people being able to wear what they like - it is also about how women have equality and freedom in this country and the wearing of the burka clearly flies in the face of that! No exceptions for anyone!

But many Muslim women chose of their own free will to wear the burka. Are you not taking away their freedom to decide they want to wear one?

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I think the principle of them abiding by our laws is very important! It isn't just about people being able to wear what they like - it is also about how women have equality and freedom in this country and the wearing of the burka clearly flies in the face of that! No exceptions for anyone!

Just not the freedom to choose ones headwear?

I couldn't give a rats ass if the woman wants to wear the burka herself. People are free to be as stupid as they want. What you are proposing is not freedom. It's the illusion of freedom. It's 'you are free to do what I think it's okay for you to do!'.

Let them wear what they want. Anything else is simply straight up hypocrisy. It's that black and white.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Maybe - but Muslim womens' freedoms shouldn't override other principles inherrent to British culture! Many women are offended to see such a symbol of female oppression rubbed in their faces on the streets of Britain! This is not a Muslim country - and Muslims should respect that, like it or not!

Do you live in a burka factory?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Stu

Do you live in a burka factory?

You jest - but as a male it is hardly surprising you don't understand or probably care how insulting such a symbol of female oppression can be to British women who have fought hard for equality for many decades!

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You jest - but as a male it is hardly surprising you don't understand or probably care how insulting such a symbol of female oppression can be to British women who have fought hard for equality for many decades!

Yes I jest, but hey, at least I drew some reverse sexism from the WOMBAI well. Us men don't give a sugar about women's rights grrrr.

You want to reverse womens rights and restrict a freedom by banning them from choosing to wear certain garments if they want to. You want to take away their right to wear a Burka. I get it. Jeez.

[Stu]

Why don't we just take your argument and go the whole way with it? I take it Islam as a whole is offensive to any sane thinking person, right? And none of us want it 'shoved in our faces', so let's cover Mosque's with cardboard cutouts of Sainsbury's, shall we?

After all, if we don't like something, we have the freedom to tell other people they no longer have the freedom to flaunt it.

~liberty

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Stu

Yes I jest, but hey, at least I drew some reverse sexism from the WOMBAI well. Us men don't give a sugar about women's rights grrrr.

You want to reverse womens rights and restrict a freedom by banning them from choosing to wear certain garments if they want to. You want to take away their right to wear a Burka. I get it. Jeez.

So - you would be quite happy for them to do so at the expense of the feelings of many British women who would be offended - in other words, Muslim women's sensitivities and freedoms should be given priority to those of many British women who feel uncomfortable with it! As a gay/bi man would you feel the same way about groups of men walking around wearing a known, blatant symbol of homophobia!

[brian3]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You jest - but as a male it is hardly surprising you don't understand or probably care how insulting such a symbol of female oppression can be to British women who have fought hard for equality for many decades!

So female rights is about women having the right to do what they choose. as long is it is want other women want them to choose.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Stu

Why don't we just take your argument and go the whole way with it? I take it Islam as a whole is offensive to any sane thinking person, right? And none of us want it 'shoved in our faces', so let's cover Mosque's with cardboard cutouts of Sainsbury's, shall we?

After all, if we don't like something, we have the freedom to tell other people they no longer have the freedom to flaunt it.

~liberty

The day we can go to a Muslim country and have our freedoms respected is the day I will support such freedoms in Britain!

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

So - you would be quite happy for them to do so at the expense of the feelings of many British women who would be offended - in other words, Muslim women's sensitivities and freedoms should be given priority to those of many British women who feel uncomfortable with it! As a gay/bi man would you feel the same way about groups of men walking around wearing a known, blatant symbol of homophobia!

I wouldn't give a shit. Actually, I would. I would find it silly and would probably verbally shout down the T-Shirt wearing nasty. But I wouldn't try and push a law into government banning him from wearing certain T-Shirts.

Hitler found the Jews offensive. His idea was a little more radical and involved cold showers and a fuckload of gas.

No. Fuck that. You don't get to toy with freedom of expression and speech by saying 'well I find this offensive, so ban it!'.

I find religion in itself offensive. But I'm not knitting together a giant, Vatican sized veil.

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

The day we can go to a Muslim country and have our freedoms respected is the day I will support such freedoms in Britain!

Oh yeah. You have demonstrated the way your brain works with regards to that logic on many occasions.

'Don't lead by example. Just copy what the other guy does hahaha'.

Two wrongs ...

[brian3]

A Muslim country is a Muslim country. But the UK is a country made up of many different cultures and beliefs. Allowing everyone to express their culture and beliefs is what makes us more free than a country that has an extreme oppressive religious laws.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Stu

I wouldn't give a shit. Actually, I would. I would find it silly and would probably verbally shout down the T-Shirt wearing nasty. But I wouldn't try and push a law into government banning him from wearing certain T-Shirts.

Hitler found the Jews offensive. His idea was a little more radical and involved cold showers and a fuckload of gas.

No. Fuck that. You don't get to toy with freedom of expression and speech by saying 'well I find this offensive, so ban it!'.

I find religion in itself offensive. But I'm not knitting together a giant, Vatican sized veil.

Oh yeah. You have demonstrated the way your brain works with regards to that logic on many occasions.

'Don't lead by example. Just copy what the other guy does hahaha'.

Two wrongs ...

Oops I had forgotten how you had risen above any such behaviour!

[Vicky.]

I believe it should be banned in places that need tight security...

Banks, airports... even shops etc.

Exactly like balaclavas are.

However, I see no reason really for it to be banned all together.

[brian3]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

'A Muslim country is a Muslim country' - if that comment doesn't excuse such double standards, I don't know what does! This is Britain - with a predominantly British culture - give some people an inch and they take a mile!

British culture is melting pot of different cultures. Unless your talking about some old imperialist British culture. Which itself was oppressive and sexist.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Abhorsen

You might want to check for flaws in your thinking. For a start our head of state is the Queen, she is the head of the Church of England, that make's Britain a Christian nation and not the so called ' non denominational democracy' that you suggest. In fact, people living in Britain are subjects, and by agreeing to such you agree to be Christian or not oppose the ruling Christian authority. It's only because the Queen chooses to allow other faiths in Britain that they are allowed to live here.

What has happened is that Britain has become too lenient and as such our culture is not shown respect by other cultures.

Actually, it is exactly your apathy which typifies the problem.

You do also realise that men and women who advocate burkas think that British women are immoral for not wearing them, and as such that is actually an insult to British men and women.

Technically we are a Christian country BUT we're not ruled by a religion say in the same way that some middle eastern countries are, that's what I'm getting at, Our government doesn't consist of only christians there's a plethora of faiths and such. We're non denominational in a way that doesn't really place any religion higher then another despite being traditional country...Do you get what I mean?

As for the part about the Queen, most of her power is typically token nowadays. She couldn't force anyone's beliefs in this day and age realistically.

As for your last point, they can think what they like it does no harm. It's not like Islam's suddenly gonna take over and Shariah law will govern the land if we don't ban Burkhas.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Abhorsen

Hang on a minute, you say "obviously there should be some restrictions", you can't say in one breath there should be freedom for burkas just because you don't care about them but in the next breath you say someone can't wear a hooded top.

And why are you making value judgements about so called 'hoodies' while you assume that anyone wearing a burka must be OK?

Explain how a hooded top is LESS of a security issue than a burka? Remember - anyone could wear a burka if they choose to under the current system.

Actually I was making a point that hats and Hoodies can't be worn in some places due to security concerns and that Burkhas should be treated the same, It shouldn't be banned but it shouldn't get any special treatment either. People are free to wear hoodies and hats but some places for CCTV reasons and such they disallow it, I'm saying if people want to wear a burkha then fine but it should adhere to the same rules as other clothing as well.

I thought that was very clear.