[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

It was found I think that 'old school' prisons for want of a better term created more problems than they solved , inmates came out institutionalised and psychologically unable to integrate back into society...
We cannot go backwards to those times, or follow the harsh regime of other nations.
A graduated response via ongoing assessments would determine who is mad, bad or dangerous to know,and what measures need to be but in place to minimise the risk of re-offending...
I guess you could call this rehabilitation, but the difference is I don't believe it is a viable option for all.
Resources should be pooled into those who have the greatest chance of 'going straight'
(as in criminality not sexuality)

Whilst I understand exactly what you mean, and I so wish it was workable: the amount of rehabiliation that goes on in our prisons currently: (Jon Venables as an example and there are many others too) - I don't see it being as effective as we would hope and wish it to be.

[arista]

No our prisons need to go the American Way
so prisoners work each day.

that makes sense.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by arista

No our prisons need to go the American Way
so prisoners work each day.

that makes sense.

Ken Clarke would agree with you. I do too.

Mr Clarke said prisons were not “delivering as they should” and that the public were right to be alarmed that prisoners often just spend their days in their cell watching television.

Writing in The Daily Telegraph, Mr Clarke said: “The public wants a penal system that properly punishes offenders, and protects the law-abiding citizen.

“Yet, our prisons are not delivering as they should.”

He added: “The first thing we are doing is introducing a full working week to get more offenders off their beds and into purposeful activity.

“Right now, prisoners are simply a wasted resource – thousands of hours of manpower sitting idle.”

A year in Halden costs the state around £116,000, while the average cost of a place in the UK is £45,000.

Cost is only one of the reasons prison reformers in the UK don't think there's any prospect of the Halden model being adopted here. We have double the number of prisoners that Norway has (around 140 per 100,000 in England and Wales, to Norway's 74.8), and having a smaller prison population makes things simpler for the Norwegian state. Halden is so new, there are no figures yet for how swiftly and frequently prisoners drift back into prison after their release

[Kizzy]

People in UK prisons work arista...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011...n_1107766.html

Some more info on rehab..
http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore...rehabilitation

[MTVN]

There might be no figures for Halden's reoffending rate but if you look at this article yesterday from the BBC about the prison island of Bastoey in Norway:

The result he refers to is a 16% re-offending rate among former Bastoey inmates. It is by far the lowest in Europe, quite possibly the lowest in the world.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

There might be no figures for Halden's reoffending rate but if you look at this article yesterday from the BBC about the prison island of Bastoey in Norway:

Yes, and of course: you have to build in this important little factor

The UK have double the number of prisoners that Norway has (around 140 per 100,000 in England and Wales, to Norway's 74.8), and having a smaller prison population makes things simpler for the Norwegian state

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Yes, and of course: you have to build in this important little factor

So connect the dots, why do they have a smaller prison population?

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MTVN

So connect the dots, why do they have a smaller prison population?

I'll thank you for refraining from being so patronising and rude MTVN - there really is no need.

5millon Norway population.

62 million UK population.

I don't really have to point out the obvious... do I?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I'll thank you for refraining from being so patronising and rude MTVN - there really is no need.

5millon Norway population.

62 million UK population.

I don't really have to point out the obvious... do I?

Obv... lol

[arista]

"People in UK prisons work arista..."

Sure Some do
but this is
Bigger Wide Scale Work System.

[Livia]

Frankly I'd be more interested in an article that talks about how the victims of crime are supported rather than another thousand words about how well the perpetrators are being looked after. I'd be interested to count the posts on this forum that bemoan the harsh treatment of criminals and compare them to posts bemoaning the sh*tty deal that the victims get.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Livia

Frankly I'd be more interested in an article that talks about how the victims of crime are supported rather than another thousand words about how well the perpetrators are being looked after. I'd be interested to count the posts on this forum that bemoan the harsh treatment of criminals and compare them to posts bemoaning the sh*tty deal that the victims get.

Quite.

[Kizzy]

Taken from
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...-the-cycle.pdf

QUOTE:
Having somewhere suitable to live upon release from custody can be a critical factor in rehabilitating offenders. Prisoners are often at risk of losing their accommodation whilst in prison. For those serving short sentences, this can further contribute to their unstable and chaotic lifestyles. In addition, around 15% of prisoners were homeless or living in some form of insecure accommodation before entering prison, including 9% who were sleeping rough.

Taken from the same article..
Prisons as places of hard work and industry
There are some examples of prisoners working hard within a disciplined environment. At HMP Manchester nearly 60 prisoners are now working up to 40 hours per week in an industrial laundry and a printing workshop. At HMP Ranby a workshop that produces plastic goods operates using prisoners over three shifts, and runs for 20 hours per day.
Some prisons also have active partnerships with the private sector. In a joint venture at HMP Kirkham with Calpac UK, some 40 prisoners work a 37.5 hour week packing food. At HMP Ford, Travis Perkins runs a 30 prisoner workshop, refurbishing equipment.
Our proposals will build on these too isolated examples, with more prisoners working hard across the prison system.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Taken from
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...-the-cycle.pdf

QUOTE:
Having somewhere suitable to live upon release from custody can be a critical factor in rehabilitating offenders. Prisoners are often at risk of losing their accommodation whilst in prison. For those serving short sentences, this can further contribute to their unstable and chaotic lifestyles. In addition, around 15% of prisoners were homeless or living in some form of insecure accommodation before entering prison, including 9% who were sleeping rough.

Sorry, I don't feel any sympathy.

I'm sure some of these types fall into the type of criminals who beat the hell out of babies, torture them, mistreat them, bludgeon old frail pensioners, con them out of their live savings, and druggies.

This is one area that I don't have pity on them. They should have thought of all this before committing their crimes.

Harsh but there it is; that's my opinion.

[arista]

"Harsh but there it is; that's my opinion. "

Which Is Bang On Right

[Kizzy]

Well we will all be dead by then so...

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by kizzy

Well we will all be dead by then so...

I'll have snuffed it in about 10 years I reckon: so by this thread: I'm going to nip over to Norway, get my resident's permit then go commit some heinous crime and spend my last few years in absolute pleasure: having my every whim catering.

That really sounds like a fabulous plan.

[Kizzy]

Not like here then..Our prison population will soon be larger than the population of norway....

[swinearefine]

Good. I think society places too much importance on punishment rather than rehabilitation. Normally living in a good environment and acquiring skills to transition into a crime-free life on the outside produce the lowest recidivism rates. Where I live they once did a program that allowed prisoners to earn bachelor's degrees and the focus was on achieving that rather than punishing them for their crimes, and not one of the prisoners in the program returned to jail after they were released.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by swinearefine

Good. I think society places too much importance on punishment rather than rehabilitation. Normally living in a good environment and acquiring skills to transition into a crime-free life on the outside produce the lowest recidivism rates. Where I live they once did a program that allowed prisoners to earn bachelor's degrees and the focus was on achieving that rather than punishing them for their crimes, and not one of the prisoners in the program returned to jail after they were released.

What did they do for the victims to help them on the road to recovery?

were they offered free shelter, food, clothing, heating and free education to Degree level?

Which rehab program was this: there must be some link to it - I'd be interested to read about it.

[swinearefine]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

What did they do for the victims to help them on the road to recovery?

were they offered free shelter, food, clothing, heating and free education to Degree level?

Which rehab program was this: there must be some link to it - I'd be interested to read about it.

They bachelor's degrees gave them potential for a career when they got on, rather than returning to selling drugs and what not. I don't know how prison works in the UK but in the US there is a high recidivism rate because when people get out they have little assistance with integrating back into society and with few job opportunities and the same group of often criminal friends they just settle back into their old lives.

They had free shelter, food, clothing, heating, and their degrees were entirely paid for, I think by a private donor. The Massachusetts government were discussing making it a tax-funded program in all the state's jails I do believe, but it was turned down because of fears that people who could not afford bachelor's degrees would commit crimes to go to jail.

I don't have any links; I remember it on the news and writing a research paper about it a few years back.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by swinearefine

They bachelor's degrees gave them potential for a career when they got on, rather than returning to selling drugs and what not. I don't know how prison works in the UK but in the US there is a high recidivism rate because when people get out they have little assistance with integrating back into society and with few job opportunities and the same group of often criminal friends they just settle back into their old lives.

They had free shelter, food, clothing, heating, and their degrees were entirely paid for, I think by a private donor. The Massachusetts government were discussing making it a tax-funded program in all the state's jails I do believe, but it was turned down because of fears that people who could not afford bachelor's degrees would commit crimes to go to jail.

I don't have any links; I remember it on the news and writing a research paper about it a few years back.

That's not what I asked about though. I asked what did 'The wonders who thought this was how to treat criminals'... what did they do for the victims at the hands of those criminals. Were the victims given years of free food, clothing, shelter, heating, electricity and a free education to degree level?

What's the name of the prison that you are referring to? See the bit in bold: you've more or less destroyed your whole argument: that's the very point some of us are making: it 'pays' to commit crime, it 'pays' to go to jail.

[swinearefine]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

That's not what I asked about though. I asked what did 'The wonders who thought this was how to treat criminals'... what did they do for the victims at the hands of those criminals. Were the victims given years of free food, clothing, shelter, heating, electricity and a free education to degree level?

What's the name of the prison that you are referring to? See the bit in bold: you've more or less destroyed your whole argument: that's the very point some of us are making: it 'pays' to commit crime, it 'pays' to go to jail.

Oh sorry, I thought you were asking about the prisoners. I have no idea how or if the victims were compensated. I think they should be in some way, but the criminals would be the ones in need of the most help - not just so they can have better lives, but so that in the future people are made victims.

And I was merely qualifying my argument. I'm not totally for one side and totally against the other. I see the value in educating prisoners, but I don't think it's fair that they get their whole education paid for while other people work hard for it. I'm just offering an example of a program that worked to combat recidivism to give more insight into the topic.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by swinearefine

They bachelor's degrees gave them potential for a career when they got on, rather than returning to selling drugs and what not. I don't know how prison works in the UK but in the US there is a high recidivism rate because when people get out they have little assistance with integrating back into society and with few job opportunities and the same group of often criminal friends they just settle back into their old lives.

They had free shelter, food, clothing, heating, and their degrees were entirely paid for, I think by a private donor. The Massachusetts government were discussing making it a tax-funded program in all the state's jails I do believe, but it was turned down because of fears that people who could not afford bachelor's degrees would commit crimes to go to jail.

I don't have any links; I remember it on the news and writing a research paper about it a few years back.

I should have addressed the bolded part in my last post... however.

This again affirms my earlier post in regards to how people are brought up - that's where it starts off: the very people you mention above are brought up, raised to believe that breaking the law is the way to live.

It's about educating from early on, in childhood - not closing stable doors after horses have bolted.

[swinearefine]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I should have addressed the bolded part in my last post... however.

This again affirms my earlier post in regards to how people are brought up - that's where it starts off: the very people you mention above are brought up, raised to believe that breaking the law is the way to live.

It's about educating from early on, in childhood - not closing stable doors after horses have bolted.

I totally agree, but there is the problem of millions of prisoners to deal with.