[Livia]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Good Post Livia, yes I guess I do come across as having a bit of an axe to grind with religion. I appreciate the majority of people can live happily with their religion but for me it is a deeply personal issue and because at its heart it involves faith which overrides logic, organised religions can and do impose certain levels of control and regulation over people's lives.

That is the core of my argument, I'm not bitter about people having religion I myself was brought up Catholic and am now a mixture of Christian and humanist but as I've stated it is a personal issue for me and how I live my life, not being a pawn in someone else's crusade to convert everyone I meet from one belief system to the other..!!

I was born into my religion but have never been forced to accept it. Belief should be about free will, and I do understand what you're saying about some religions. Talking freely about your faith if you're asked is one thing, but actively trying to convert people is quite another.

I sometimes wonder what Moses, Mohammed and Jesus would think about the things that have been done in their name over the years. Sadly I don't think that will change any time soon.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

As far as I know, Hitler didn't create the Third Reich off the back of religion, religious people don't have the monopoly on madness. What I'd love to see is people living peacefully and accepting the beliefs of others, and accepting their right to believe, whether that belief is in God's existance, or not.

My religion has survived 5000 years, I'm sure another 500 won't make any difference.

I thought Hitler was actually quite interested in religious artifacts and spirituality and ancient religions? maybe i'm just thinking of Indiana Jones though...

[lostalex]

As far as religion being a "personal thing" i wish it was, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Every religion in the world actively tries to convert new members, and every religious person i've ever met has told me that religion is not just about their own personal beliefs about God, but that actually religion is about every aspect of their life, and that it is a guide for how human beings should live their lives. That makes religions political, not just personal. I can't name a religion that isn't political.

Originally Posted by lostalex

I thought Hitler was actually quite interested in religious artifacts and spirituality and ancient religions? maybe i'm just thinking of Indiana Jones though...

The third Reich was made up of a mixture of Occultism, Norse mythology and Christianity.

Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by lostalex

As far as religion being a "personal thing" i wish it was, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Every religion in the world actively tries to convert new members, and every religious person i've ever met has told me that religion is not just about their own personal beliefs about God, but that actually religion is about every aspect of their life, and that it is a guide for how human beings should live their lives. That makes religions political, not just personal. I can't name a religion that isn't political.

My point exactly.....!!!!!

Originally Posted by lostalex

As far as religion being a "personal thing" i wish it was, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Every religion in the world actively tries to convert new members, and every religious person i've ever met has told me that religion is not just about their own personal beliefs about God, but that actually religion is about every aspect of their life, and that it is a guide for how human beings should live their lives. That makes religions political, not just personal. I can't name a religion that isn't political.

Judaism doesn't try to convert people.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Judaism doesn't try to convert people.

There are lots of people who have to convert to marry a jewish person.

Originally Posted by lostalex

There are lots of people who have to convert to marry a jewish person.

I'm an anti-theist so I don't care for any religion at all, but Judaism is more cultural than religious these days.

I take your point about conversion for marriage, but are these people then expected to proselytize and convert others?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I'm an anti-theist so I don't care for any religion at all, but Judaism is more cultural than religious these days.

I take your point about conversion for marriage, but are these people then expected to proselytize and convert others?

Well they would be expected to proselytize their children, does that count?

Originally Posted by lostalex

Well they would be expected to proselytize their children, does that count?

Parents teach their their children all kinds of wacky beliefs. I don't agree with it, but Judaism isn't a religion with aims of increasing in power or size. It's not in the same league as the other 2 Abrahamic religions.

I doubt anyone converting in order to marry another person is actually going to become devout enough to proselytize to anyone.

[lostalex]

Well there is a quite strong orthodox jewish community. Especially in New York and in Israel. The Orthodox jews can be just as fanatical as radical christians and radical muslims.

Youtube video

The so-called holy land is the largest mental asylum on earth, and I don't trust America's bastardisation of any religion.

It somehow feels that I'm defending the Jew bastards now, when that's not the case. I do, however, think there is definitely a distinction to be made between Judaism and the younger versions of the same thing.

[lostalex]

There are radical elements of all religions is all I mean. I agree that for 90% of religious people it's just cultural and traditional. But are those people really religious? Most people of any religion arn't really very religious at all.

Originally Posted by lostalex

There are radical elements of all religions is all I mean. I agree that for 90% of religious people it's just cultural and traditional. But are those people really religious? Most people of any religion arn't really very religious at all.

People are hypocrites in general. I'll use America, because you obviously know about it, but if Jesus walked into congress on 9/15 and said "love OBL, don't try and kill him", what would have happened? The most Christian country in the world is nothing like a world that JC would imagine. Tax breaks for the rich, and let the poor suffer. Healthcare should be available at no cost to everyone, because that's what Jesus would be pushing for.

He certainly wouldn't be implementing things like chained cpi and looking for a "grand bargain".

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

People are hypocrites in general. I'll use America, because you obviously know about it, but if Jesus walked into congress on 9/15 and said "love OBL, don't try and kill him", what would have happened? The most Christian country in the world is nothing like a world that JC would imagine. Tax breaks for the rich, and let the poor suffer. Healthcare should be available at no cost to everyone, because that's what Jesus would be pushing for.

He certainly wouldn't be implementing things like chained cpi and looking for a "grand bargain".

No, if Jesus was in charge of America America would be a lot more ****ed than it already is. Stop spreading the propaganda that Jesus was this all loving beautiful human being. He wasn't. He was a shameless self promoter and fraudster. He'd make the current politicians look saintly in comparison.

Originally Posted by lostalex

No, if Jesus was in charge of America America would be a lot more ****ed than it already is. Stop spreading the propaganda that Jesus was this all loving beautiful human being. He wasn't. He was a shameless self promoter and fraudster. He'd make the current congress look saintly in comparison.

I'm not spreading the propaganda. Believe me, I know all about the flaws and war mongering of some of his philosophies.

He was also a fraudster that you pretty much have to believe in, in order to get anywhere in your political system. Sorry, but your congress with 7-10% approval rating is appalling.

I'm not saying we're better, because we're not. All ideas are man made.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I'm not spreading the propaganda. Believe me, I know all about the flaws and war mongering of some of his philosophies.

He was also a fraudster that you pretty much have to believe in, in order to get anywhere in your political system. Sorry, but your congress with 7-10% approval rating is appalling.

I'm not saying we're better, because we're not. All ideas are man made.

If Jesus did come back, do you honestly think anyone would believe him? They'd probably call him the devil and crucify him again.

We've had plenty of people claim to be Jesus returning.

[InOne]

Youtube video

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

There are lots of people who have to convert to marry a jewish person.

Judaism accepts converts, but do not recruit. My husband wasn't Jewish, he did not convert and so we couldn't marry in the synagogue, but he was still accepted by every Jewish person I know. My parents gave me every opportunity to opt out. I guess all decent parents would. Orthodox Jews are another matter entirely, like you said... but don't you find that all religious people who tend to suffer from their faith, end up being a little... wacky?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

Judaism accepts converts, but do not recruit. My husband wasn't Jewish, he did not convert and so we couldn't marry in the synagogue, but he was still accepted by every Jewish person I know. My parents gave me every opportunity to opt out. I guess all decent parents would. Orthodox Jews are another matter entirely, like you said... but don't you find that all religious people who tend to suffer from their faith, end up being a little... wacky?

I agree that most religious people would be just as happy being christian, or muslim or jewish, they just enjoy sharing traditions with their loved ones. Like I said before, most religious people really arn't very religious. Most religious people are not intellectually or spiritually invested in their own religion. Most have never read their own religious texts, or put much thought into the darker sides of their religion.

When i talk about "religious people" i'm really talking about that 10% of each religion that are the fanatics, and actually believe in the dogma.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I agree that most religious people would be just as happy being christian, or muslim or jewish, they just enjoy sharing traditions with their loved ones. Like I said before, most religious people really arn't very religious.

Thats not what I said though. I am not a Christian or a Muslim. I am a Jew. I'm not sure most Jews would be happy being Muslim or Christian. And I'm pretty sure no Muslim is going to be happy being a Christian or even less likely, a Jew. I'm happy for people to follow whichever faith they choose, but that doesn't mean I would give up my own faith for theirs. I don't think you can grade people's religiousness, and I'm certain you can't grade mine. That's like saying, most gay people aren't really that gay. It's a little... insulting.

[lostalex]

really? so you think if you were born into a christian family, you wouldn't be just as happy being christian? because your "soul" would still be "jewish". sorry but i disagree. you only identify as jewish and cherish being jewish because you were raised that way, i don't think there is anything INHERENTLY jewish about you.

Comparing homosexuality is just silly, because being gay isn't a choice. being Jewish IS a choice. You didn't choose to be born into a jewish family, but you do choose to identify as jewish. religion is not the same as sexuality. Judaism is an ideology and a culture. being attracted to the same sex is not an ideology or a culture.

I'm sure you've met plenty of gay jews.

[Livia]

The 'gay' comment was a wildly sweeping and untrue statement, just as I felt your summing up of the majority of religious people being "not very religious" was.

I don't feel the need to justify what I am and who I am, or grade how strongly I feel and why. I know, and that's enough.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Livia

The 'gay' comment was a wildly sweeping and untrue statement, just as I felt your summing up of the majority of religious people being "not very religious" was.

I don't feel the need to justify what I am and who I am, or grade how strongly I feel and why. I know, and that's enough.

okay, i feel you're shutting down the conversation by just saying "you don't understand, how dare you judge religions!".

you arn't using rational debate, you're just shutting down and claiming victimhood. This is how it ALWAYS goes when you try to have a conversation about religion with religious people. And it's really not fair.

Why do you think it's okay to just shut off debates like this?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

okay, i feel you're shutting down the conversation by just saying "you don't understand, how dare you judge religions!".

you arn't using rational debate, you're just shutting down and claiming victimhood. This is how it ALWAYS goes when you try to have a conversation about religion with religious people. And it's really not fair.

I'm shutting down because I feel like I've said all I have to say on this thread. Your opinion is your own and I'm not going to change it. I don't want to change it. And I certainly don't feel like a victim here. I just don't feel the need to try to make you understand how I feel. And as I like you, I don't want it to deteriorate into an argument.