[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think it's dangerous to continually hold the security services to public account. It's hard to conceive the weight of responsibility on the security services in all countries fighting terrorism and reports like this do nothing but aid terrorists and support for terrorists. Waterboarding caused convulsions and vomiting... well at least their heads weren't hacked off.

The most telling sentence from that whole report for me is this:
"The intelligence gained from the programme was critical to our understanding of al-Qaeda and continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts to this day," Director John Brennan said in a statement."

Anything goes as far as i'm concerned with these bastards.The more reports that come out and public uproar,The less power we have to deal with these scumbags.
How else do you extract information from someone who is happy to die for their cause?
You have to cause them pain and make them talk,Asking them nicely is'nt gonna work.
As far as i'm aware the US government is yet to behead one these terrorists.They don't sink anywhere near their level.

[MTVN]

It's also important to note that not everyone who was treated this way was a tried and tested, foaming at the mouth jihadist intent on beheading innocents.

"26 of the 119 were wrongfully held and later judged nothing to do with terrorism"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...te-report.html

Among the people who were wrongly held was Nazar Ali, "an 'intellectually challenged' individual whose taped crying was used as leverage against his family member".



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-prisons.html

Woop yeah, get dem terrorists!!!!!!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

I was referring to the actions of the CIA as 'indiscriminate sh*t' not anything you posted. And personally, yes I do see many justifications of torture as based on warmongering rhetoric, just as you see condemnations of it as 'bleeding heart' and 'wishy washy' crap.

I don't think we will ever agree on this so I won't pursue it too strongly. But let's just be clear again that this report was commissioned by members of government into a program stopped by Obama in 2009. And that the report has the backing of John McCain who is a strong believer in US military intervention and has been on the wrong end of torture himself. These are the people who are at the very heart of the battle against extremism and have been for years, and this is the government who is doing near on everything feasible to find Jihadi John and his lot. So don't make them out as some out of touch bleeding hearts who know nothing about the reality of war; they know full well.

I'm not belittling the part played by Americans or the USA in hunting down terrorists or in fighting terrorism -- I align myself 1000% with the USA and Israel -- but this being so, does not mean that I have to agree with Obama's actions here, or McCain's opinions, because I don't. McCain's views are relevant because of his experiences but that experience does not give him a monopoly on the truth, nor automatically render his opinions any more valid on this subject than mine. It is just opinion.

Further: I disagree that the US Government "is doing near on everything feasible to find Jihadi John and his lot" because - like all Western Governments - their efforts are shackled by an outdated and misplaced sense of morality (which ironically, is so totally lacking in these Islamic Fundamentalist monsters) and they do not go far enough.

To reiterate: I do not "make them out as some out of touch bleeding hearts who know nothing about the reality of war" but knowing about "war" is one thing, and recognising what actions are necessary to win that war, and implementing them - no matter how personally morally reprehensible those actions may be - is wholly another thing.

I agree with you that we will never agree on this subject so I think we will have to agree to disagree, but I wish to make a couple of points clear; I believe in God with all my heart, mind and soul - a Christian God at that - and I am -- and always have been -- anti-war - but I am also a realist, and sadly resigned to the fact that sometimes only extreme counter measures will truly counter extreme measures.

In have seen the future if we do not cast off those 'shackles of misplaced morality' and become demons to fight demons, and if we do, then for me, the end will justify the means. If we don't, then these Islamic Fundamentalist monsters will win this war, and when they do, no amount of pleading to their non-existent moral sensibilities and 'sense of fair play' will prevent your head becoming detached from your shoulders.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

It's also important to note that not everyone who was treated this way was a tried and tested, foaming at the mouth jihadist intent on beheading innocents.

"26 of the 119 were wrongfully held and later judged nothing to do with terrorism"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...te-report.html

Among the people who were wrongly held was Nazar Ali, "an 'intellectually challenged' individual whose taped crying was used as leverage against his family member".



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-prisons.html

Woop yeah, get dem terrorists!!!!!!

I understand any critic of the interrogation techniques in question holding up the fact that out of 119 'suspected' terrorists 26 were 'deemed' to be innocent, but before they start wearing such a fact as some kind of 'Badge of Honour', perhaps we should recognise the very telling fact that this means that of the 119 'suspected' terrorists interrogated 93 were actual terrorists.

So, yes, 26 'innocent' suspects are an example of unfortunate and regrettable 'collateral damage', but these 'innocents' still live and breathe to tell their tales -- unlike all the poor innocent victims of the Islamic Fundamentalist butchers who are the raison d'etre for these 'interrogations' in the first place.

26 'innocent victims will recover, be compensated, live on, and who knows how many thousands or tens of thousands of innocent victims will also continue to 'live on', because of vital information 'obtained' from these 93 actual terrorists about their planned future atrocities?

The end justifies the means.

[Kizzy]

So it's ok to torture innocent people as the ratio to actual terrorists is not as great?...

1 in every 5 roughly is an acceptable figure and collateral damage, no it's not justifiable.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its america

is anyone surprised?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

So it's ok to torture innocent people as the ratio to actual terrorists is not as great?...

1 in every 5 roughly is an acceptable figure and collateral damage, no it's not justifiable.

I never said it was "OK" - I said that it was "regrettable" but in the context of 'extracting' vital information which could save tens of thousands of innocent lives by preventing planned terrorist atrocities, and millions of lives by helping us win this war, then it was unavoidable and necessary 'Collateral Damage' .

So in short - yes, I deem it justifiable. No one was butchered - unlike the many innocent victims of the Jihadist scum - and there was a reason for what transpired -- unlike the senseless bombings and beheadings by the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists who have no reason.

[Tom4784]

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Scrooge

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

It does though, if we present ourselves as the Bastion of Democracy and advocates of Human Rights we can't go around abusing both on the sly in the guise of pretending it's for the greater good. It undermines everything we do and have done.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It does though, if we present ourselves as the Bastion of Democracy and advocates of Human Rights we can't go around abusing both on the sly in the guise of pretending it's for the greater good. It undermines everything we do and have done.

we are but we are realistic and realise than when dealing with the filthy side of humanity one will get ones halo dirty.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Scrooge

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

Fecking brilliantly put LT - You took the words right out of my mouth.

[MTVN]

Even if you have no ethical qualms about torture and its illegailty, surely this report casts massive doubts on its effectiveness even from a strictly utilitarian point of view. It goes some way to confirming what people have said for years; that information gleamed from torture is frequently unreliable by the very nature of its method. People either say anything their captors want to stop the pain or their mind is in such a state that they might not even know whether what they are saying is true or not.

The most valuable information that the CIA gained came through their tried and tested, legal interrogation measures, not their torturous ones.

[Livia]

We aren't dealing with a cause that can be reasoned or negotiated with. If we (USA and UK) really were "sinking to their level" we'd be dragging people out and having them watch while soldiers gang raped their wives and daughters and dismembered their sons... and that's just the nice stuff. I refuse to wring my hands for terrorists and their supporters knowing what these people are capable of, and I'm frankly shocked that Obama couldn't have kept his flapping gob shut on this one. No one in custody is totally innocent, they will be guilty at least by association. The security services don't arrest people and detain them for fun, they want to get to the root of the problem. If you want to make an omelette you have to break some eggs. If you want to live in safety and freedom, you have to take out the terrorist by any means necessary.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

We aren't dealing with a cause that can be reasoned or negotiated with. If we (USA and UK) really were "sinking to their level" we'd be dragging people out and having them watch while soldiers gang raped their wives and daughters and dismembered their sons... and that's just the nice stuff. I refuse to wring my hands for terrorists and their supporters knowing what these people are capable of, and I'm frankly shocked that Obama couldn't have kept his flapping gob shut on this one. No one in custody is totally innocent, they will be guilty at least by association. The security services don't arrest people and detain them for fun, they want to get to the root of the problem. If you want to make an omelette you have to break some eggs. If you want to live in safety and freedom, you have to take out the terrorist by any means necessary.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

Try preaching those sentiments to the wives and mothers of fallen soldiers who were killed fighting a war on our behalf - a war which these Islamic Fundamentalist devils started unjustly.

Try preaching it to the grief-stricken parents of all the tiny innocent children killed or maimed in indiscriminate car bombings in civilian areas or in the deliberate targeting of schools and hospitals by these warped terrorists bastards.

For now - thanks to our soldiers and our intelligence and security services - we can both enjoy the freedom to express any opinion we want without fear of recrimination.

For how much longer, however, may truly depend on whether we get real and abandon our 'moral' shackles, or continue to fight inhuman, immoral devils wielding bombs and guns with fluffy pink slippers.

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Creggle

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

[Crimson Dynamo]

why this came out when we are at war with IS is beyond me

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Scrooge

why this came out when we are at war with IS is beyond me

You're right. That's what baffles me LT and why I said I suspect the authors motives and loyalty to the USA.

It doesn't make sense.

[Creggle]

I thought IS hated Al Qaeda/Taliban just as much as they do everyone else? Though it doesn't really matter, they can't stoop any lower anyway.

[MTVN]

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Creggle

I thought IS hated Al Qaeda/Taliban just as much as they do everyone else? Though it doesn't really matter, they can't stoop any lower anyway.

They're all pissing the same Fundamentalist urine into the same Muslim Brotherhood pot.

The only difference is that Al Quaeda and the Taliban extremists are not fanatacal and extreme or devout enough for ISIS who are self-elected Islamic purists.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

MTVN - I really do respect your passion and integrity, but we will never, ever agree on this subject.

You are correct in a lot of the points you make which would - essentially - mean that I am employing 'double standards' -- which I am.

The reasons for this is, that I am fanatically partisan about the UK and Christianity, and have also supported Israel from the time I was a schoolkid, and I am both increasingly angered, and sickened by these Islamic fanatics and their barbaric, murderous self-proclaimed agenda to conquer the world.

The terrorism, the senseless slaughter, the bombings and wars, will never ever stop until either the Islamic Fundamentalists are stopped -- forever -- or they win and fulfill their agenda, and if that happens, we will witness executions on such a scale that it will eclipse all the heinous slaughter of every evil regime and lunatic despot in history --- including Hitler, Pol Pot, Attila the Hun and Vlad the Impaler.

You simply cannot fight by the Marquis of Queensberry rules when the guy in the other corner is wielding a baseball bat, and you cannot appeal to the 'human' in non-humans, nor rely on the spirituality of the Godless, or try to negotiate with the fanatic who will not cede one inch of ground because he wholeheartedly believes that all 'ground' is Allah's by right.

So I simply do not care what levels we stoop to in order to eradicate these murderous demons, nor do I care how much we now have to mirror the 'tortuous behaviour' of regimes or despots we once condemned them for.

If I could eradicate all these devils in one nano second I would, and I would not lose a moment's sleep over it.

Again - apologies to Brecht; 'Victory first, then morals'.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Try preaching those sentiments to the wives and mothers of fallen soldiers who were killed fighting a war on our behalf - a war which these Islamic Fundamentalist devils started unjustly.

Try preaching it to the grief-stricken parents of all the tiny innocent children killed or maimed in indiscriminate car bombings in civilian areas or in the deliberate targeting of schools and hospitals by these warped terrorists bastards.

For now - thanks to our soldiers and our intelligence and security services - we can both enjoy the freedom to express any opinion we want without fear of recrimination.

For how much longer, however, may truly depend on whether we get real and abandon our 'moral' shackles, or continue to fight inhuman, immoral devils wielding bombs and guns with fluffy pink slippers.

That sounds a lot like rationalising to me.

Originally Posted by Creggle

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

Because we must practice what we preach, also you can't pick or choose. Either you believe everyone deserves Human Rights or nobody does. It's a black and white issue, grey doesn't exist here.

The war in Iraq and everything that followed was done in the name of ending extremism and ending regimes like Saddam Hussein's and that ironically resulted in the rise of IS which even the Al Queda doesn't want to be associated with. It was the need for a blood price in the first place that created IS and if we're comitting human rights abuses ourselves then that just gives IS more power and arguments against the West to recruit people into their ranks.