[Livia]

Miliband was the problem. No one took him seriously, even dyed-in-the-wool Labourites I've spoken to thought he was weak. Dan Jarvis would be my choice for Labour, they need someone with balls if they're not going to face another disaster in five years, bearing in mind Cameron will almost certainly throw the towel in and Boris will lead Conservatives into the next general election.

[smudgie]

Might work better for them if they elect someone that sounds working class and speaks working class.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Might work better for them if they elect someone that sounds working class and speaks working class.

here for Tristram

Spoiler:

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

After what can only be described as a calamitous campaign and election

Where now for Labour?

kinda OT but I hate how people think it's okay to take photos of people like this... it's so wrong

[Shaun]

Vague policies and nothing concrete.

Had they done a '97 and delivered all those really specific election pledge cards, I think that would've been a start. Even the silly plinth he unveiled was the most vague thing ever.

I think Miliband had a great campaign in terms of how he personally came across, but in hindsight I think that was just because we were all expecting him to be the awkwardly-eating Wallace and Gromit PR nightmare he was in the first two years of his leadership.

Plus there were the tides beyond his control - had Scotland not got swept up in petty nationalism that just leaves them more isolated and esoteric with a "no" vote behind them, maybe things would be different, but Labour should've been more vocal in devolution and promises to them I guess. And idiots are always going to believe Labour were responsible for the financial crash.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Vague policies and nothing concrete.

Had they done a '97 and delivered all those really specific election pledge cards, I think that would've been a start. Even the silly plinth he unveiled was the most vague thing ever.

I think Miliband had a great campaign in terms of how he personally came across, but in hindsight I think that was just because we were all expecting him to be the awkwardly-eating Wallace and Gromit PR nightmare he was in the first two years of his leadership.

Plus there were the tides beyond his control - had Scotland not got swept up in petty nationalism that just leaves them more isolated and esoteric with a "no" vote behind them, maybe things would be different, but Labour should've been more vocal in devolution and promises to them I guess. And idiots are always going to believe Labour were responsible for the financial crash.

"Petty" nationalism? If the last few days have confirmed anything for me, it's that I don't know anyone in their right Mind who wouldn't want to be as far away from rancid Westminster politics as possible, if given half a chance. Utterly toxic.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Vague policies and nothing concrete.

Had they done a '97 and delivered all those really specific election pledge cards, I think that would've been a start. Even the silly plinth he unveiled was the most vague thing ever.

I think Miliband had a great campaign in terms of how he personally came across, but in hindsight I think that was just because we were all expecting him to be the awkwardly-eating Wallace and Gromit PR nightmare he was in the first two years of his leadership.

Plus there were the tides beyond his control - had Scotland not got swept up in petty nationalism that just leaves them more isolated and esoteric with a "no" vote behind them, maybe things would be different, but Labour should've been more vocal in devolution and promises to them I guess. And idiots are always going to believe Labour were responsible for the financial crash.

I agree with a lot of this, and I really warmed to Ed during the campaign

[Calderyon]

The election system and getting on a bandwagon -event might be two of them.

Fear of not getting a stable government. Fear of new and thus settling on old.

[empire]

13 years of labour, over spending to opening the gates to cheap labour in the eu, zero hour contracts, that should of never have been brought in, low wages, ripping of the younger generation, discrimination of the working class with forced tolerate laws that have made area's of britain no-go area's, covering up child grooming in area's of england, giving the banker's the power to rip people off, to pay their bonuses, blair forcing the tax payer to give money to the eu scumbags, pointless wars, too much immigration that has caused a huge housing crises, and has alienated the people of this country, going soft on crime, political correctness that has made the police forces less tough on crime, to making people feel scared to say what they think,

[the truth]

Originally Posted by empire

13 years of labour, over spending to opening the gates to cheap labour in the eu, zero hour contracts, that should of never have been brought in, low wages, ripping of the younger generation, discrimination of the working class with forced tolerate laws that have made area's of britain no-go area's, covering up child grooming in area's of england, giving the banker's the power to rip people off, to pay their bonuses, blair forcing the tax payer to give money to the eu scumbags, pointless wars, too much immigration that has caused a huge housing crises, and has alienated the people of this country, going soft on crime, political correctness that has made the police forces less tough on crime, to making people feel scared to say what they think,

spot on and plenty more too...they were an unmitigated disaster....even their calling card of income redistribution they were the worst government ever as the rich / poor divide was bigger than for 200 years

[the truth]

having a pillock like balls as shadow chancellor after he bankrupted the country wasn't a smart idea for starters

[empire]

labour stopped being a working class party when the blair people moved in, it has never got away from that, either, labour are in decline, and it is the fault of there leaders who put outsiders first, rather than the people who voted for them, a mp woman in the party side about the man with the st george flags on his house, where ugly, diane abbott said that white people love playing the divide an rule game, where do you think ukip got its nearly 4.000.000, votes from, it wasn't from the tory's, it was the labour working class vote, the media is cover this one up,

[billy123]

They didnt do much wrong they only lost by 8%. People are selfish by nature and the **** you Jack im alright culture is the sad disease of the British.

People are generally just selfish and couldnt give a rats arse about other people these days.

It makes me sad how much people are just out for themselves these days. Im just not wired like that i suppose.
I give a crap if the old lady next door is ok and has gas in her meter and check on her every day but i guess the "silent majority" don't.

You can shove your **** you Jack mentality right up your cornhole right wingers i will never become as selfish.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bobnot

They didnt do much wrong they only lost by 8%. People are selfish by nature and the **** you Jack im alright culture is the sad disease of the British.

People are generally just selfish and couldnt give a rats arse about other people these days.

It makes me sad how much people are just out for themselves these days. Im just not wired like that i suppose.
I give a crap if the old lady next door is ok and has gas in her meter and check on her every day but i guess the "silent majority" don't.

You can shove your **** you Jack mentality right up your cornhole right wingers i will never become as selfish.

...hmmm, I'm going to give this some thought Bob but my instinct thing is that I'm not sure that I agree with you...people are selfish/have always been selfish..people are more selfless/have always been more selfless, I don't think it's a generation or era thing. it's a character thing that has always been there and always will be because it's the differences in people ..and I don't think it's the silent majority that don't care but more a minority...I know many, many people who like you, check the meter of the old lady along the road and make sure that she's ok, in fact I probably know very few people who wouldn't....and there are people like Joey, young people who go out and find out what people's needs are and where they are being let down and what they themselves can do about that, even if it's only something quite small and not long lasting, they're doing something and whatever is in their power to do...isn't that a proof that people are not selfish and not only think about others but listen and do something as well...I think it's just the nature of media and the internet etc that negative things are what are reported more and less human interest and kindness type stories...so we're kind of leaned and led toward thinking that people are more negative/more selfish etc because that creates the biggest discussions and outrages, type thing....you say about your 'wiring' and that wiring is the same for me and for many others, so many others that it's looking at the 'doing' more and not so much the talking because although talking is good and necessary as well/highlighting things...but the probability is that I won't ever change anyone else's opinion and they won't ever change mine...so I won't ever change anything or make any differences by talking ....it's sad that you think people are intrinsically selfish but those are your experiences so true for you but for me and my experiences of people, that's not so true....anyway, I'll give it more thought because this is just an instinct type thought...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bobnot

They didnt do much wrong they only lost by 8%. People are selfish by nature and the **** you Jack im alright culture is the sad disease of the British.

People are generally just selfish and couldnt give a rats arse about other people these days.

It makes me sad how much people are just out for themselves these days. Im just not wired like that i suppose.
I give a crap if the old lady next door is ok and has gas in her meter and check on her every day but i guess the "silent majority" don't.

You can shove your **** you Jack mentality right up your cornhole right wingers i will never become as selfish.

Most of the selfish people you're referring to do actually give a crap. The squeezed middle pay copious amounts of tax that help pay the benefits of the neediest. I live in a true blue area and contrary to your wild generalisation, communities give a MASSIVE **** about each other. You seem to labour under the misapprehension that everyone on the left is an altruist when that is just not true!

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Livia

Most of the selfish people you're referring to do actually give a crap. The squeezed middle pay copious amounts of tax that help pay the benefits of the neediest. I live in a true blue area and contrary to your wild generalisation, communities give a MASSIVE **** about each other. You seem to labour under the misapprehension that everyone on the left is an altruist when that is just not true!

I agree.. strangely the tory voters I know are kinder more honest people than a lot of socialists I know. pretty ironic

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Most of the selfish people you're referring to do actually give a crap. The squeezed middle pay copious amounts of tax that help pay the benefits of the neediest. I live in a true blue area and contrary to your wild generalisation, communities give a MASSIVE **** about each other. You seem to labour under the misapprehension that everyone on the left is an altruist when that is just not true!

And you seem to labour under the apprehension that the 'squeezed middle' who pay tax couldn't also be on the left and be opposed to the austerity cuts seemingly.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And you seem to labour under the apprehension that the 'squeezed middle' who pay tax couldn't also be on the left and be opposed to the austerity cuts seemingly.

i think the squeezed middle are angry at both sides....because they are the true backbonw of society who pay the biggest proportion of their income through one tax or another and what do they see ? the mega rich getting off scot free and bailed out by the working people and they also have to pay for the workless chavs who choose to milk benefits and breed for benefits ...you go out on a Saturday night around here and its only the workless chav benefit milkers who can afford the time and money to be out drinking....the actual working people are too tired and too skint...its an absolute disgrace and regardless of party politics allegiance id be delighted to see dave Cameron or anyone sort out this mess

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

i think the squeezed middle are angry at both sides....because they are the true backbonw of society who pay the biggest proportion of their income through one tax or another and what do they see ? the mega rich getting off scot free and bailed out by the working people and they also have to pay for the workless chavs who choose to milk benefits and breed for benefits ...you go out on a Saturday night around here and its only the workless chav benefit milkers who can afford the time and money to be out drinking....the actual working people are too tired and too skint...its an absolute disgrace and regardless of party politics allegiance id be delighted to see dave Cameron or anyone sort out this mess

If you're on JSA it's not enough to fund nights out, these people are either working or criminals.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bobnot

They didnt do much wrong they only lost by 8%. People are selfish by nature and the **** you Jack im alright culture is the sad disease of the British.

People are generally just selfish and couldnt give a rats arse about other people these days.

It makes me sad how much people are just out for themselves these days. Im just not wired like that i suppose.
I give a crap if the old lady next door is ok and has gas in her meter and check on her every day but i guess the "silent majority" don't.

You can shove your **** you Jack mentality right up your cornhole right wingers i will never become as selfish.

I agree Bobnot, this is the age of individualism, from a sociological perspective this has been creeping in gradually since the promotion of the 'new right' perspective advocated by Milton Friedman and Peter Bauer.
The fact people aren't even aware of the influence this has had shows how pernicious the methods have been to inflict this divisive mindset.

[the truth]

they got it all wrong since Kinnock and john smiththey need to unscramble scrambled eggs....go back to the beginning

1) Kinnock was a good decent man a learned and compassionate leader who was still a progressive socialist, but the press destroyed him. he was too welsh too ginger and too bald and he spoke more like an American candidate , i.e. he was a like a preacher a passionate almost spiritual speaker
2) john smith was brilliant, did all the top jobs. he was eloquent he was again a progressive socialist ...a great speaker, witty and had integrity. he would have lead to a huge victory, alas tragically his heart gave way....
3) labour went way over the top they didn't need to change a thing just follow the lead of these 2 leaders....anyone could beat major by that time....but labour lost the plot and in came the most vile creature in the history of politics.
4) so he beat major big deal and a few other frankly absurd tory leaders straight out of the munster show....after thatcher any fool could have lead labour to 3 terms, she was the most hated leader ive ever known, despite the rich giving her 3 terms
5) so labour need to be radical now and go back to their roots

a) re nationalise the utilities
2) renationalise the railways, why should we pay Ł60 billion for a privatised sector? insane
3) reinvest in the industries, especially coal. the germans liquefy coal and its up 30%..the germans force through laws to enable this process is cheaper and faster and less regulated....we look on idiotically and argue amongst ourselves....we cant afford to dig our world class coal because of EU regulations...fight the regulations and also fight to leave Europe
4) fight to give the unions more power to at least protect workers rights
5) respect tax payers money....investigate where all the waste takes places throughout the public services and government and boy do we waste billions
6) take the nhs and stop pretending its awesome, its not.....completely change the focus on the nhs to TESTING people...imagine its an mot test centre...plus in the people to all the machines and get them tested to find out whats wrong with the damn people then hey presto you can then try find the cure....as it stands its too complex too burocratic to get tested and scanned and people don't know whats worng with them so instead they bed block waste medication and the poor people suffer in pain or die, scan the damn people, cut the middle management and endless waste
7) scrap these trusts....theyre a disgrace...merge the health trusts and social care under one roof to stop the petty squabbling and waste which hurts old people, also start claiming back travel insurance for foreign visitors.
8) benefits. for goodness sakes clarify how foreigners claim for benefits and how much nat ins they have to pay as we all have to do...stop welgare benefits going to overseas , stop free cars and other such nonsense...stop the universities fiddling to get foreign students easy degress just for the uni's to milk payouts from the EU
9) take vat off fuel bills for starters, another disgusting thatcher stunt....state the aim to cut vat inhalf and a view to scrapping it altogether...making up the shortfall with a sliding scale of income tax from 55% to 52.5 to 50 down to 10.......close umpteen tax loopholes
10) scrap political correctness its farking evil....everyone should be allowed to talk openly and honeslty about every topic under the sun without false accusations of an ism.....its gone on too long unchecked and it destroyed healthy democratic debate....scrap women only shortlists and scrap lowering standard to get in the army of fir brigade etc.....if a man or woman or marginally disabled person applies he/she must pass to the same high standards, if they do great, if they don't tough try next year or quit....these are life and death roles theyre not roles to pander to some other agendas
11) scrap tariffs on these cheap tacky Chinese imports
12) force the people who dig up the roads to have a rep from the business community at each and every meeting, to itemise to these wasteful people exactly how much money their road digging nonsense is costing the economy. get them to dig the roads up the same time as far as is possible ...make the contract bidding process more open and exact far tighter deadlines and financial punishments if they go past their deadlines
13) force into law that speed cameras and speed bumps can ONLY be put down when there is a proved need for them , not simply so that a council can waste its money to get next years money....totally overthrow that system which rewards mindless waste
14) give us the English language back, speak in a language we can all understand you double talking corrupt spinsters
15) get out of the eu...give us back the uk...spread the wealth spread the investments spread the jobs and the uk will survive...if we keep getting londonccentric....we lose Scotland wales and n Ireland to Europe and England stands alone. some may like that but it makes us weaker it ruins the uk and makes every aspect of our lives harder....no more collaboration , no more shared industries, shared experiences, shared skills , shared history, shared future....I like the uk,,,,but right now Scotland would rather be run by a bunch of strangers in Brussels than politicians in London....that is one hell of a damning statement and it must be reversed with realpolitik , no false nationalism but true understanding of each other and true collaboration

[empire]

the labour party's rot started in the 80s. Kinnock's leadership was weak, when blair went into the leadership, they no longer where a working class party, many of the new mps, under blair where from rich backgrounds, who went to public school, and would send there children to paid private schools, they took the rights of home owners to defend there homes from robbers, thugs, and scumbags who attack people, they gave human right's to thugs, killers, and to people who groomed children in parts of england, they wasted money, and spent it silly, the poverty rate under labour is the same as it is under the tory party rule, they have treated british workers like second class citizens,

[MTVN]

[Ammi]

...wow a shock, to me anyway..

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by MTVN