[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I’m not scoffing, Vicky...I promise you I’m not but I do think it’s sometimes tricky to define oppression because surely in some cultures for instance...we may feel we see oppression but that female doesn’t necessarily feel oppression because they feel they’re making their own choices within their own culture and beliefs ...so we have to respect that also otherwise, we would become the oppressors ourselves, if that makes sense...that doesn’t mean there aren’t some things though that protection against isn’t needed with our laws etc...hmmm, I’m also not sure I agree with ‘so many still see women there as men’s amusement’...yes there are some obviously who do have that mindset and there are laws to protect also..but I don’t think it’s a ‘many’ thing, and a more generalised and extensive thing for the male mindset today...and that then also risks taking back feminism a little as well because it could be perceived as indicating a low opinion of males felt by ‘the feminist females’...so then things start to hinder rather than progress forward because it could create a resistance to femism...

There has always been, and there always will be, resistance to feminism. Especially when papers such as the mail make out that all feminists are hairy ugly fat man haters. And people eat that up.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Feminist: a person who believes in the social, political
And economic equality of the sexes

This is currently a wildly inaccurate definition.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is currently a wildly inaccurate definition.

Ok then so what does it mean

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

There has always been, and there always will be, resistance to feminism. Especially when papers such as the mail make out that all feminists are hairy ugly fat man haters. And people eat that up.

...well various media demonisation of many, many things is all of our ‘daily fight’, I guess we could say.....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

There has always been, and there always will be, resistance to feminism. Especially when papers such as the mail make out that all feminists are hairy ugly fat man haters. And people eat that up.

There is a very real and present backlash against modern feminism because modern feminism is more based in anger and retribution than in progression or finding solutions; partly because people feel duty-bound to engage in something that they don't have the time nor inclination to actually try to understand in anything but the most superficial depth, and partly due to being hijacked by individuals who, frankly, just enjoy being combative activists and would actually be completely lost if true equality was achieved and they no longer had "their defining cause".

Pretending that backlash doesn't exist, or that it is baseless, is dangerous and will erode any progress towards actual diversity. When people quite brazenly "don't care" about that and reserve the right to "be angry and rant" - I have to question whether their motivation really is equality at all, or if the kick they get from the rant itself is somehow more important.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Ok then so what does it mean

Modern feminism? It doesn't have a fixed definition; and that's 90% of the problem.

[Vicky.]

'Modern feminism'..can you define what that is to you please? I know you say it has no fixed definition, but can you give an example beyond the gender pay gap (which I am not sure exists in reality)

Modern feminism to me is all this sex positive liberal feminism stuff...and I would agree that thats mainly bull****.

Second wave is where its at, for me. 'Radical feminism' (which does not mean extremist like I thought it did until recently)..actually about womens rights and liberation. None of this ridiculous identity politics post modern bollocks.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Modern feminism? It doesn't have a fixed definition; and that's 90% of the problem.

There’s no such thing as “modern feminism”

Feminism is what Jonathan posted, the issue you have is with SJW who take things to the extreme, label it as feminism and then people begin to resent what feminism actually is

[lewis111]

Radical feminism is such a small part of feminism yet does seem to have become the most vocal and a reason why people distance themselves from the word and words like "Feminazi" come about

[Ammi]

...it’s just odd really with the F1 grid girl thing atm as well...and we’re defining femism as equal choice which obviously it is...but then when that choice is given, which it is to the grid girls..we’re saying no, we need to ban that, you can’t do it ...and why do we want it banned, well it’s not you actually, it’s those awful men so blame them for banning you and taking away your choice of that unique experience...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by lewis111

Radical feminism is such a small part of feminism yet does seem to have become the most vocal and a reason why people distance themselves from the word and words like "Feminazi" come about

Nah. Thats because of what smithy said. Some people being loudmouths and blaming it on feminism tbh. Nothing wrong with radical feminism as its actually supposed to be.

The radical feminism you seem to have in mind is

SJW who take things to the extreme, label it as feminism and then people begin to resent what feminism actually is

[smudgie]

What is wrong with just being an individualist, if we have to be tagged with any label at all.
I am just me.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by smudgie

What is wrong with just being an individualist, if we have to be tagged with any label at all.
I am just me.

...I’m going to start promoting smudgism as a thing actually...we should all be more smudgie....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I’m going to start promoting smudgism as a thing actually...we should all be more smudgie....

How is Smudgie supposed to be an individualist if we all turn more Smudgie?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Withano

How is Smudgie supposed to be an individualist if we all turn more Smudgie?

...we’re going to foil her plans, Withano...shhhhh, I thought that one had slipped by without her noticing...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...we’re going to foil her plans, Withano...shhhhh, I thought that one had slipped by without her noticing...

I'll distract her

[Vicky.]

I think thats the first time I have seen that elephant used in over 3 years

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by smudgie

What is wrong with just being an individualist, if we have to be tagged with any label at all.
I am just me.

Unfortunately individuals and individual thinking are not fashionable - group thinking seems more in keeping with the times. Not for me though!

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I think thats the first time I have seen that elephant used in over 3 years

My distraction plan is totally working, Ammi

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I think thats the first time I have seen that elephant used in over 3 years

Originally Posted by Withano

My distraction plan is totally working, Ammi

......


...(...you can start that elephant movement now, Withano...I think it’s time..)...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it’s just odd really with the F1 grid girl thing atm as well...and we’re defining femism as equal choice which obviously it is...but then when that choice is given, which it is to the grid girls..we’re saying no, we need to ban that, you can’t do it ...and why do we want it banned, well it’s not you actually, it’s those awful men so blame them for banning you and taking away your choice of that unique experience...

It's essentially an attempt at a form of "social engineering" with the aim being to force equality of outcome "as soon as possible" instead of providing legal equality and equality of opportunity and accepting that equality of outcome will take time to come to fruition.

And its not even that I don't understand the desire to "make it happen quickly, make it happen now" or the frustration in realising that "this stuff takes time" ... It's just that these forms of forced social engineering through dictating what people can and cannot do "because of the message it sends" simply don't work and actually, no matter how well meaning they are, generate an inevitable backlash that sets back real progress years, maybe decades, maybe halts or reverses it completely.

In short, I find modern feminism to be more about identifying "how things should be ideally" and screaming "IT MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT WE SAY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN", instead of actually engaging in the - yes, unfortunately, sometimes frustratingly slow - pursuit of freedoms for all that contribute to ever-increasing equality as a simple natural consequence of progress, and not because a square peg has been battered into a round hole.

Put more succinctly - I think the thought process is too often "this is how I want things to be right now, for me" instead of "these are the goals we need to seek for tomorrow, for everyone".

With specific regard to the F1 situation; I fully believe that if society continues on a positive, progressive, non-combative trajectory of true inclusion and equality, then the "girls in tight dresses" will naturally die off, so to speak, as they become outdated and attitudes change. This is in contrast to to current urge to FORCE such changes with the idea that doing so will somehow change attitudes. It won't. It might bury them, it might tempt people to hide them, it will not change them, and if the last two or three years have taught us anything at all it should be that attempting to force rapid change through repression just creates a resentment bubble, one that invariably bursts, and then you get Brexit, and Trump, and EMBOLDENED sexism and racism rather than less of it.


Tl;Dr - the key to equality of outcome is maintenance of equality of opportunity + patience. People lack patience and want to force FALSE equality of outcome through legislation and positive discrimination. The bulk of modern feminism falls into the latter category.

[lewis111]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Nah. Thats because of what smithy said. Some people being loudmouths and blaming it on feminism tbh. Nothing wrong with radical feminism as its actually supposed to be.

The radical feminism you seem to have in mind is

Idk some people are very easily triggered by feminism or even the mention of it, it's sort of like veganism - there is literally nothing wrong with it its people protecting animals yet so many people despise vegans

It's just ignorance a lack of education though surely, if people knew feminism was just purely wanting equality then they'd be awful not to support it

[Vicky.]

Well explained TS. I agree with most points you just made. I think the frustration is understandable though, we have been fighting to be equal for a hundred years and are still not there. By law, yes, but in reality no. I understand the urge to essentially...force change rather than let it happen naturally. As waiting for it to just happen does not seem to be working and things are already starting to go backwards. If we just wait and see..chances are evertything will just go way back, and then the same work that has already been done, will need to be done again. if that makes sense.

In short, I understand where you are coming from totally...but at the same time I just cannot see how just waiting for change will help anything.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's essentially an attempt at a form of "social engineering" with the aim being to force equality of outcome "as soon as possible" instead of providing legal equality and equality of opportunity and accepting that equality of outcome will take time to come to fruition.

And its not even that I don't understand the desire to "make it happen quickly, make it happen now" or the frustration in realising that "this stuff takes time" ... It's just that these forms of forced social engineering through dictating what people can and cannot do "because of the message it sends" simply don't work and actually, no matter how well meaning they are, generate an inevitable backlash that sets back real progress years, maybe decades, maybe halts or reverses it completely.

In short, I find modern feminism to be more about identifying "how things should be ideally" and screaming "IT MUST BE THAT WAY RIGHT NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT WE SAY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN", instead of actually engaging in the - yes, unfortunately, sometimes frustratingly slow - pursuit of freedoms for all that contribute to ever-increasing equality as a simple natural consequence of progress, and not because a square peg has been battered into a round hole.

Put more succinctly - I think the thought process is too often "this is how I want things to be right now, for me" instead of "these are the goals we need to seek for tomorrow, for everyone".

With specific regard to the F1 situation; I fully believe that if society continues on a positive, progressive, non-combative trajectory of true inclusion and equality, then the "girls in tight dresses" will naturally die off, so to speak, as they become outdated and attitudes change. This is in contrast to to current urge to FORCE such changes with the idea that doing so will somehow change attitudes. It won't. It might bury them, it might tempt people to hide them, it will not change them, and if the last two or three years have taught us anything at all it should be that attempting to force rapid change through repression just creates a resentment bubble, one that invariably bursts, and then you get Brexit, and Trump, and EMBOLDENED sexism and racism rather than less of it.


Tl;Dr - the key to equality of outcome is maintenance of equality of opportunity + patience. People lack patience and want to force FALSE equality of outcome through legislation and positive discrimination. The bulk of modern feminism falls into the latter category.

...sorry, it’ll just have to be a quick reply because I need to eat...but with regard to the F1 grid girls, yeah I agree, I think some types of representations will just die off naturally...but for the times they have been a part of it F1..?...I think the opportunity for the girls has probably been quite important to them in terms of experience and also probably seen as a ‘priveledge’...just slightly off topic, one of my nieces...which is the closest I have to a daughter...?...through her teens, she did some modelling, waitressing and also a bit of acting ...she was an extra in a Harry Potter...some people, did actually say to her...oh, I don’t know, be careful with the modelling because MEN and exploitation and such the like...anyway, that’s all you can do, advise really and some of her friends did...but she did it all as part of her life expanding experiences...and now she practises law in France...I think what I’m trying to say is that these experiences like being grid girls etc...are not necessarily aspirations either, they’re just experiences on a journey and I would think, are probably very positive ones to have...

...and I do totally agree about ‘backlash’ as well, no matter how well meaning etc..?...I mean we could say that Brexit/the result, was partly backlash as well for some...(..not all obviously..)...things that are meant to feel progressive can often be quite the opposite and be very hindering...anyways, have to go.....

[bots]

The way i see it, there is proactive feminism and reactive feminism. By this point we shouldn't be needing to deal with reactive feminism, it should all be proactive. If people aren't complying with the proactive measures now in place they should be hauled up for it. To me, people still raising points under the reactive banner are the ones doing feminism the greatest disservice.