[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

These bakeries that hide behind their religions to discriminate against people are rarely companies that have religion as their USP tbh. Nobody would have looked at this company or the one in Ireland and think 'ah, this is a christian bakery.'

[Livia]

I agree with Peter Tatchell on the subject of gay marriage, he seems to have worked it out. This is about the Northern Ireland case, but the subject is the same.


“Although I strongly disagree with Ashers’ opposition to marriage equality,” the veteran LGBT and human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell has observed, “in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be compelled to facilitate a political idea that they oppose.” He is right.

Had Ashers refused to serve Lee because he was gay, or because of his support for same-sex marriage, then I can see why it would be guilty of discrimination. But it did not. It declined to decorate a cake with a particular message.

The Ashers discriminated not against an individual but against a specific political demand. To compel an individual or business not to discriminate between political demands has, as Tatchell points out, “dangerous implications”: “A Jewish publisher could be obliged to print a book that propagates Holocaust denial. Likewise, Muslim publishers could be legally pressured, against their will, to print the Danish cartoons of Muhammad that Muslims find deeply offensive.”



https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...o-refuse-order

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

I agree with Peter Tatchell on the subject of gay marriage, he seems to have worked it out. This is about the Northern Ireland case, but the subject is the same.


“Although I strongly disagree with Ashers’ opposition to marriage equality,” the veteran LGBT and human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell has observed, “in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be compelled to facilitate a political idea that they oppose.” He is right.

Had Ashers refused to serve Lee because he was gay, or because of his support for same-sex marriage, then I can see why it would be guilty of discrimination. But it did not. It declined to decorate a cake with a particular message.

The Ashers discriminated not against an individual but against a specific political demand. To compel an individual or business not to discriminate between political demands has, as Tatchell points out, “dangerous implications”: “A Jewish publisher could be obliged to print a book that propagates Holocaust denial. Likewise, Muslim publishers could be legally pressured, against their will, to print the Danish cartoons of Muhammad that Muslims find deeply offensive.”



https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...o-refuse-order

sums it up for me

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I agree with Peter Tatchell on the subject of gay marriage, he seems to have worked it out. This is about the Northern Ireland case, but the subject is the same.


“Although I strongly disagree with Ashers’ opposition to marriage equality,” the veteran LGBT and human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell has observed, “in a free society neither they nor anyone else should be compelled to facilitate a political idea that they oppose.” He is right.

Had Ashers refused to serve Lee because he was gay, or because of his support for same-sex marriage, then I can see why it would be guilty of discrimination. But it did not. It declined to decorate a cake with a particular message.

The Ashers discriminated not against an individual but against a specific political demand. To compel an individual or business not to discriminate between political demands has, as Tatchell points out, “dangerous implications”: “A Jewish publisher could be obliged to print a book that propagates Holocaust denial. Likewise, Muslim publishers could be legally pressured, against their will, to print the Danish cartoons of Muhammad that Muslims find deeply offensive.”



https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...o-refuse-order

I don't understand the comparison. In this instance they're making cakes, that they make, for the consumption of the customer paying for it.

A publisher doesn't just print any and all books, but books they as a company select and choose to finance/publish?

It's why I don't get the halal comparison either. That would be a company being requested to make foods they don't sell, this isn't. It was a customer asking for a cake... from a cake shop.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

christ has risen

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

He looks like some hippy that lives in a forest. Look at the little trees surrounding the edge of the cake... it has a Robin Hood, 60's-era pot smoker vibe.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Why do these people choose Christian bakers? Why not a Muslim one? Or a Jewish one? I'm sure the case wouldn't get as far as court if they did.

Is it advertised as a christian bakery?

The Americans are a funny lot.

[user104658]

I agree with that, seems pretty succinct really, and the point is that no one has to like it - they can refuse to buy from there again, spread the message to other gay couples not to shop there (for any cake), tell their friends who may then also avoid etc. but it should never be an actual legal obligation when it's a political stance like this... And it is one.

It seems like a strange and difficult to understand thing for most people I guess, but I've encountered quite a few religious people who are actually totally fine with homosexuality and same sex relationships / "life partners", have gay friends, etc. and yet are opposed to same sex marriage, with the focus being more about their beliefs about what marriage is or should be... In the sense that "the Bible explicitly says its between a man and a woman" so therefore any other coupling isn't legitimately marriage. So I agree that its more akin to refusing to print / publish / legitimise a political message than it is direct discrimination.

[Walter White]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The Supreme Court ruled in favor of a Colorado baker who declined to make a wedding cake for a same-sex ceremony.

The case – Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission – asked the high court to balance the religious rights of the baker against the couple’s right to equal treatment under the law. Similar disputes have popped up across the U.S.

The decision to take on the case reflected renewed energy among the court's conservative justices, whose ranks have recently been bolstered by the addition of Justice Neil Gorsuch to the high court.

Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop in Lakewood, Colo., declined to make a cake for the wedding celebration of two gay men in 2012. Phillips told the couple that he would make a birthday cake but could not make a cake that would promote same-sex marriage due to his religious beliefs.

The Supreme Court ruled 7-2 in favor of Masterpiece Cakeshop.

"The laws and the Constitution can, and in some instances must, protect gay persons and gay couples in the exercise of their civil rights, but religious and philosophical objections to gay marriage are protected views and in some instances protected forms of expression," the Court said in its decision. "While it is unexceptional that Colorado law can protect gay persons in acquiring products and services on the same terms and conditions as are offered to other members of the public, the law must be applied in a manner that is neutral toward religion."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/04...ne-events.html

So the US Supreme Court supports bigotry. Good to know.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Walter White

So the US Supreme Court supports bigotry. Good to know.

Its not in Every State
in USA
Just a few.

[Alf]

Oh dear, what a bummer.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Alf

Oh dear, what a bummer.

[user104658]

"We would like a cake please"
"Is it a wedding cake u look like gays "
"No, it is a birthday cake"
"Oh... that's OK then. What would you like."
"We would like it to have three tiers please."
"Three tiers... OK. What about icing?"
"Just white icing please all over."
"Just... just white icing you say... ... OK what about writing?"
"No writing on our birthday cake thanks."
"Decorations?"
"We would like two small figurines of men in tuxedos on the top of the cake please."
"EY! Wait a damn minute, what is this?? I said no wedding cakes!"
"No no no! It's a birthday cake. For twins. Can you have them holding hands please?"

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"We would like a cake please"
"Is it a wedding cake u look like gays "
"No, it is a birthday cake"
"Oh... that's OK then. What would you like."
"We would like it to have three tiers please."
"Three tiers... OK. What about icing?"
"Just white icing please all over."
"Just... just white icing you say... ... OK what about writing?"
"No writing on our birthday cake thanks."
"Decorations?"
"We would like two small figurines of men in tuxedos on the top of the cake please."
"EY! Wait a damn minute, what is this?? I said no wedding cakes!"
"No no no! It's a birthday cake. For twins. Can you have them holding hands please?"

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"We would like a cake please"
"Is it a wedding cake u look like gays "
"No, it is a birthday cake"
"Oh... that's OK then. What would you like."
"We would like it to have three tiers please."
"Three tiers... OK. What about icing?"
"Just white icing please all over."
"Just... just white icing you say... ... OK what about writing?"
"No writing on our birthday cake thanks."
"Decorations?"
"We would like two small figurines of men in tuxedos on the top of the cake please."
"EY! Wait a damn minute, what is this?? I said no wedding cakes!"
"No no no! It's a birthday cake. For twins. Can you have them holding hands please?"

Very funny . A birthday cake wouldn't have tiers or figurines lol .

I was just saying some weddings have extra stand alone cakes with other messages and decorations ie baloons or congratulations writted on .
A birthday cake doesn't have to be a traditional HAPPY BIRTHDAY one .

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"We would like a cake please"
"Is it a wedding cake u look like gays "
"No, it is a birthday cake"
"Oh... that's OK then. What would you like."
"We would like it to have three tiers please."
"Three tiers... OK. What about icing?"
"Just white icing please all over."
"Just... just white icing you say... ... OK what about writing?"
"No writing on our birthday cake thanks."
"Decorations?"
"We would like two small figurines of men in tuxedos on the top of the cake please."
"EY! Wait a damn minute, what is this?? I said no wedding cakes!"
"No no no! It's a birthday cake. For twins. Can you have them holding hands please?"

Also TS...

Spoiler:

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Maru

Also TS...

Spoiler:

...

[Marsh.]

Again, the issue is not the cake, it's the discrimination.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Again, the issue is not the cake, it's the discrimination.

Actually the issue is the cake aswell as they insist on a special cake and won't accept other alternatives.

Discrimination happens to all kinds of people , but the baker still gave them another option of cake . It's not like he completely shunned them and refused to serve them .

Like other people have said it's not like it's a huge chain or big supermarket shop. It's a small bakery isn't it? .

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Actually the issue is the cake aswell as they insist on a special cake and won't accept other alternatives.

Discrimination happens to all kinds of people , but the baker still gave them another option of cake . It's not like he completely shunned them and refused to serve them .

Like other people have said it's not like it's a huge chain or big supermarket shop. It's a small bakery isn't it? .

It's a small bakery so they have a right to discrimination?

Nah, don't work like that.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's a small bakery so they have a right to discrimination?

Nah, don't work like that.

What if there was a bakery that only offered birthday cakes would that be discrimination to other events ? . Or what if there was a bakery that didn't do bar mitzvah celebration cakes? is that offensive to jewish people? .

It's not as simple as to just say "oh it's discrimination" , is that the answer to everything when you don't get what you want? go to court ? i don't agree with that .

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

What if there was a bakery that only offered birthday cakes would that be discrimination to other events ? . Or what if there was a bakery that didn't do bar mitzvah celebration cakes? is that offensive to jewish people? .

It's not as simple as to just say "oh it's discrimination" , is that the answer to everything when you don't get what you want? go to court ? i don't agree with that .

That's not what happened? So, again, you're debating something no one else is.

The bakery doesn't "only offer birthday cakes" he declined to make a cake for a wedding because they are gay. That's what actually happened. Discrimination, no matter what silly diversionary arguments you make.

[Maru]

If only religious folk would just get rid of their petty beliefs... seems to be the logic of some of those some who disagree with this position... but that is not seeing the bigger picture.

If for example a group went to a company and asked them to make a cake or an ad campaign for a KKK chapter or for an Anti-gay organization... I would understand completely if those folk refuse such a request on principled grounds. I mean when we talk about hate speech laws, aren't we really discussing discriminating what is and isn't hate speech?... Discrimination is not always bad thing. Sometimes it is just common sense... many companies would refuse this request, and I would refuse this request, absolutely...

It doesn't feel good for the individual when the loudest message they hear from their environment is to "just get over" their life-long culture (and value) structures... but this is what politics now often ask of voters. Pick a side or find yourself standing alone... because we won't protect you if you stray from our political platform...

For me, it's not so simple to just eliminate all discrimination in commercial services. When it involves individuals, we informing them that they must lay down and allow others to impose rules on how they practice their individual customs... this is why intellectual diversity is such a red herring now... because to employ such a heavy hand on custom, is not only authoritative, but eventually eliminates all individual discredition ...

What's worse it's not even enough to say to those who are religious or declining on principled grounds, that they just disagree... but they also tend to declare that the other side has entered a moral danger zone and must be "handled" at all costs... but this is a heavy-handed and contradictory stance to take when we are supposed to be the society that considers individual rights to be the forefront of our government's structure...

Anyway... we have to make room for individuals to live according to their culture and belief structures, with reason, in order to truly exist as a diverse society...

Perhaps the middle ground here is that businesses that have this policy in place company-wide, must alsodeclare their small/big business as an entity with religious status (i.e. Christian)... and I think this is fair, as it would make it fairly transparent to patrons what requests would likely be unreasonable in that capacity.

It would also eliminate the chance of reckless discriminatory practices from arbitrarily being enforced... since they would need legal status in order to "enforce" such a company policy.

In the US, we have something like this for gun laws... there is a sign that the business must put up, it is specific penal code... one is they cannot enter with an open-carry weapon.. the other is they cannot enter those premises with any weapon period... if that sign is disregarded, that violation is considered automatically a felony... (which would bar them from owning at all)

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Maru

If only religious folk would just get rid of their petty beliefs...

I doubt writing words on a cake for a customer would interfere with anyone's political or religious beliefs.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I doubt writing words on a cake for a customer would interfere with anyone's political or religious beliefs.

Don't say that to my Catholic grandmother ... it's not enough for some to just believe in name and spirit only... though that is how many people practice now with how increasingly secular our respective societies have become...