[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

That’s exactly what she and her hateful horde want people to do, they don’t want trans people, especially trans women, to be recognised as what they are, they want them marginalised and separated away from the rest of society because they don’t see them as legitimate, that’s what it all boils down to

Most people just want proper safeguarding analysis to be done before forging ahead with irreversible changes to the law, and for reasonable debate where everyone stops pretending that there's no difference (sports, fairness in competition) and no risk (self-ID, exploitation of loopholes by predators). The argument seems to boil down to "predatory men won't exploit loopholes" which sadly just shows absolutely zero awareness of the risk women face from predatory men, and apparently, absolutely no desire to try to understand that risk. Any loopholes that haven't been adequately considered WILL be exploited. It's not a risk - it's a certainty.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that there aren't bigots who simply don't like "the idea" hanging onto the coat-tails of the debate and using it as a shield to be petty, vindictive and cruel. Of course there are, there always are in any debate. Using that as justification to "no debate" the issue and tar everyone with concerns as being "just like those people" is a deflecting tactic and absolute nonsense. High school stuff. No place at all in the real discussion - and yet it's rhetoric that's bleeding into the politics and legislation of the issue (because of most politician's endless drive to appeal to populism).

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Most people just want proper safeguarding analysis to be done before forging ahead with irreversible changes to the law, and for reasonable debate where everyone stops pretending that there's no difference (sports, fairness in competition) and no risk (self-ID, exploitation of loopholes by predators). The argument seems to boil down to "predatory men won't exploit loopholes" which sadly just shows absolutely zero awareness of the risk women face from predatory men, and apparently, absolutely no desire to try to understand that risk. Any loopholes that haven't been adequately considered WILL be exploited. It's not a risk - it's a certainty.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that there aren't bigots who simply don't like "the idea" hanging onto the coat-tails of the debate and using it as a shield to be petty, vindictive and cruel. Of course there are, there always are in any debate. Using that as justification to "no debate" the issue and tar everyone with concerns as being "just like those people" is a deflecting tactic and absolute nonsense. High school stuff. No place at all in the real discussion - and yet it's rhetoric that's bleeding into the politics and legislation of the issue (because of most politician's endless drive to appeal to populism).

I understand the whole safeguarding, the issue is sensitive. And predators will always take advantage. And yes women's rights is important.

And some so called "activists" are insane.

But I just CAN'T see where JK is coming from on this new TIRADE of hers ,it seems she just wants to have a go at Starmer..... And I'm NOT even a big fan of his. How did she want him to refer to trans women?.

It's NOT like he said anything bad ,but she's chosen to be offended.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No, being a bigot = being a bigot, but you defending bigots in the name of ‘protecting women’ is nothing new

What has she said that's bigoted?

Originally Posted by Liam-

That’s exactly what she and her hateful horde want people to do, they want them marginalised and separated away from the rest of society

When has she said this?

Originally Posted by Liam-

they don’t want [] trans women, to be recognised as what they are

But they do want transwomen to be recognised as what they are ...

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Me and my kids agree on most things.. they are lefties too. But we do differ massively on this, especially my gen z, he is disgusted by my views on this.
I am really conflicted myself too as I can appreciate the issues faced by the trans community, and yet I always find myself disagreeing with the politically advocated view on this issue.

I am all for anyone living how you like, one life .you do you and all that . But .. unless you grew up from a baby, infant, child, adolescent and young adult as a female then you haven't had the socialisation that shapes what I consider a woman. ( and obviously the same for men)
This is only my personal view, it might upset some and I am sorry for that, I've gone over and over it many many times but I can't change my stance on this.

Essentially what I'm saying is my belief is trans male and female can't be men and women as they haven't had the whole life experience.

I'm apparently a millennial, just a couple of years off being a zoomer, and I'm at odds with a lot of people my age and younger about the trans issue.

I feel like either a) I'm taking crazy pills or b) people my age and down have lost the ability to think critically about the issue of gender

Gender is a social construct, and some aspects of gender norms change through time, but males are males and females are females. How one "identifies" has nothing to do with anything, and a thought in someone's head shouldn't be put above biological realities, especially when it comes to one group's rights...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Me and my kids agree on most things.. they are lefties too. But we do differ massively on this, especially my gen z, he is disgusted by my views on this.
I am really conflicted myself too as I can appreciate the issues faced by the trans community, and yet I always find myself disagreeing with the politically advocated view on this issue.

I am all for anyone living how you like, one life .you do you and all that . But .. unless you grew up from a baby, infant, child, adolescent and young adult as a female then you haven't had the socialisation that shapes what I consider a woman. ( and obviously the same for men)
This is only my personal view, it might upset some and I am sorry for that, I've gone over and over it many many times but I can't change my stance on this.

Essentially what I'm saying is my belief is trans male and female can't be men and women as they haven't had the whole life experience.

Well yeah I think most people think this way, previously left leaning people haven't all of a sudden just turned into nasty bigots for no reason (despite the narrative) there is a reason for sex based rights (specifically for women)

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well yeah I think most people think this way, previously left leaning people haven't all of a sudden just turned into nasty bigots for no reason (despite the narrative) there is a reason for sex based rights (specifically for women)

I think most people who enter the debate for genuine reasons know that...

There are an element who just want to stir the pot and be nasty

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I think most people who enter the debate for genuine reasons know that...

There are an element who just want to stir the pot and be nasty

I think basically EVERYONE knows, it's just that there's this "tried and tested" prescribed methodology of "fighting back against this" that's been taken on - the slogans, mantras, refusing to engage in good faith, declaring debate offensive, the idea that any questioning or dissent is akin to hatred or more ludicrously "murder", and also an entire disingenuous demeanor that goes with it (that can be summed up with the emoji). You could collectively call it "stonewalling".

It doesn't really work any more but for whatever reason there are a large group of people still forging ahead with it. Probably because they don't actually have any other way to do it because, as a consequence of doing things this way, they have no solid understanding of their own cause and the arguments offered up are immature and riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies. If you point those out, they just fall back on "getting rly angry" and the names come out (TERFs, harpies, murderers etc.). 95% aimed at women of course .

[Alf]

[Mystic Mock]

Like Goldheart, I honestly don't get what she wanted Starmer to come out and say here?

[user104658]

To add to the above - JK Rowling is blatantly not one of those people using it as an excuse to be hateful. She has followers who do fall into that category, certainly. That's neither her fault nor her problem and none of what she has actually said is particularly unreasonable - although it's clear she's becoming increasingly frustrated.

[Alf]

Trump said last night in his speech that when he gets back in the White House he will be stopping men from competing in women's sports.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Alf

Trump said last night in his speech that when he gets back in the White House he will be stopping men from competing in women's sports.

A real feminist.

[bots]

rhetoric like "hateful horde" is just not helpful

[Kizzy]

Personally I don't feel Caitlin Jenner had the most positive impact. Sure, for the trans community she was a hero and the transition raised a lot of awareness with the media attention.
However, from my perspective I saw someone who effectively leap frogged over a huge part of what most consider an integral part of transition. Living as a female prior to surgery.

In July 2015 Caitlin won a 'Woman of the year' award, she had only come out to her family in April.
The award was presented by Abby Wambach, who that year had inspired the world by kissing her partner following a soccer win.

Taking the award from a woman who had been as if not more pivotal in the LGBTQ+ community seemed like .. male privilege.

The fact that in February that year Caitlin (then Bruce) had killed a 69yr old woman by driving recklessly. She escaped any accountability for that, again smacked of privilege due to status.

The fact that once transitioned Caitlin was for a long while a right wing mouthpiece was a massive kick in the face for those struggling. She didn't appear to acknowledge the struggle that had formed the crux of her acceptance speech. And it became clear to me that in her opinion rights and change are bought, not a right.

[Swan]

Kind of ironic how some biological men think they know better on this subject.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Swan

Kind of ironic how some biological men think they know better on this subject.

Isn't it?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Isn't it?

Actually yes , as I said my son is the first to tell me how wrong I am on this...jog on manchild!

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Actually yes , as I said my son is the first to tell me how wrong I am on this...jog on manchild!

Was he able to explain why you're wrong?

[Liam-]

Caitlin Jenner was never considered a hero

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Caitlin Jenner was never considered a hero

Bruce was.

[Cherie]

It used to be trans women and women...then it was transwomen and cis women...now the goalposts have moved again and its women as a collective, thats a not a good move for women born as women in my view

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It used to be trans women and women...then it was transwomen and cis women...now the goalposts have moved again and its women as a collective, thats a not a good move for women born as women in my view

It seems to be women and "people with a cervix " or "mensturaters" so transwomen are women and women are a bodily function or body part. Men are still just men though.... odd that

[Jordan.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It seems to be women and "people with a cervix " or "mensturaters" so transwomen are women and women are a bodily function or body part. Men are still just men though.... odd that

Literally no one refers to women this way in real life. We need to stop acting like niche examples that get blown out of proportion on social media are the new reality.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Caitlin Jenner was never considered a hero

Not in your opinion obviously.

However according to this article the award was initially seen as hugely positive.

It's noted how you gave no other comment on my points..I see TS however you responder to fully. Hmm? Unconscious bias?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...overnor-recall

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Not in your opinion obviously.

However according to this article the award was initially seen as hugely positive.

It's noted how you gave no other comment on my points..I see TS however you responder to fully. Hmm? Unconscious bias?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...overnor-recall

Unconscious bias?

Do you want bullet points in response to all of your comments or what?

I get accused of lecturing if I reply to women and now I’ve got an unconscious bias against them when I don’t reply to everything you say

The awarding of the award to a trans woman was an incredibly positive step yes, but not because it was Caitlyn Jenner, her status as the new face of trans was refuted right from the beginning