[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Creggle

I thought IS hated Al Qaeda/Taliban just as much as they do everyone else? Though it doesn't really matter, they can't stoop any lower anyway.

They're all pissing the same Fundamentalist urine into the same Muslim Brotherhood pot.

The only difference is that Al Quaeda and the Taliban extremists are not fanatacal and extreme or devout enough for ISIS who are self-elected Islamic purists.

[MTVN]

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

MTVN - I really do respect your passion and integrity, but we will never, ever agree on this subject.

You are correct in a lot of the points you make which would - essentially - mean that I am employing 'double standards' -- which I am.

The reasons for this is, that I am fanatically partisan about the UK and Christianity, and have also supported Israel from the time I was a schoolkid, and I am both increasingly angered, and sickened by these Islamic fanatics and their barbaric, murderous self-proclaimed agenda to conquer the world.

The terrorism, the senseless slaughter, the bombings and wars, will never ever stop until either the Islamic Fundamentalists are stopped -- forever -- or they win and fulfill their agenda, and if that happens, we will witness executions on such a scale that it will eclipse all the heinous slaughter of every evil regime and lunatic despot in history --- including Hitler, Pol Pot, Attila the Hun and Vlad the Impaler.

You simply cannot fight by the Marquis of Queensberry rules when the guy in the other corner is wielding a baseball bat, and you cannot appeal to the 'human' in non-humans, nor rely on the spirituality of the Godless, or try to negotiate with the fanatic who will not cede one inch of ground because he wholeheartedly believes that all 'ground' is Allah's by right.

So I simply do not care what levels we stoop to in order to eradicate these murderous demons, nor do I care how much we now have to mirror the 'tortuous behaviour' of regimes or despots we once condemned them for.

If I could eradicate all these devils in one nano second I would, and I would not lose a moment's sleep over it.

Again - apologies to Brecht; 'Victory first, then morals'.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

MTVN - I really do respect your passion and integrity, but we will never, ever agree on this subject.

You are correct in a lot of the points you make which would - essentially - mean that I am employing 'double standards' -- which I am.

The reasons for this is, that I am fanatically partisan about the UK and Christianity, and have also supported Israel from the time I was a schoolkid, and I am both increasingly angered, and sickened by these Islamic fanatics and their barbaric, murderous self-proclaimed agenda to conquer the world.

The terrorism, the senseless slaughter, the bombings and wars, will never ever stop until either the Islamic Fundamentalists are stopped -- forever -- or they win and fulfill their agenda, and if that happens, we will witness executions on such a scale that it will eclipse all the heinous slaughter of every evil regime and lunatic despot in history --- including Hitler, Pol Pot, Attila the Hun and Vlad the Impaler.

You simply cannot fight by the Marquis of Queensberry rules when the guy in the other corner is wielding a baseball bat, and you cannot appeal to the 'human' in non-humans, nor rely on the spirituality of the Godless, or try to negotiate with the fanatic who will not cede one inch of ground because he wholeheartedly believes that all 'ground' is Allah's by right.

So I simply do not care what levels we stoop to in order to eradicate these murderous demons, nor do I care how much we now have to mirror the 'tortuous behaviour' of regimes or despots we once condemned them for.

If I could eradicate all these devils in one nano second I would, and I would not lose a moment's sleep over it.

Again - apologies to Brecht; 'Victory first, then morals'.

Fair enough kirk. I think this is just obviously something where we both feel passionately enough about our different views to ever accept the others conclusions

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

What about all the times we have condemned governments around the world for their abuse of human rights? What about all the times that the likes of Iran have been frozen out from the international community because of how they treat their enemies? What about the times we have even toppled regimes and gone to war because of the disregard shown to international law?

You give leeway to our security services to torture detainees then you had better allow the same for the Russians, the Iranians, the Lebanese, the Syrians etc. etc. All governments that have to face up to extremism daily and have their citizens lives constantly under threat - for Russia in Chechnya, for the others constantly having IS on their doorsteps if not already inside their homes. We used the clandestine torturous activity of the Gaddafi regime as an excuse to bomb it. We came inches away from doing the same in Syria. For years we have wagged our finger at Iran for how they have treated their enemies because you either respect international law and human rights or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose. We were better than the Iranians though, apparently. We were different. We had consigned those methods to the scrap heap long ago. The hypocrisy is eye stinging. The only saving grace is that it has been laid bare. And in that sense, yes the US is better than Iran, Russia etc. because it has not swept this under the carpet. It has actually restored some of my faith in the West and Britain should follow but we obviously won't.

If this report motivates more people to the extremist cause then that is on those who carried out the torture. It is not on those who brought it to light. You say it's necessary in the interests of freedom and democracy well I would say it flies in the face of everything that those terms are supposed to mean.

Because we are , we are , we are the west oi! oi! oi!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

Because we are , we are , we are the west oi! oi! oi!

The 'West' is far from some utopia, but I just wish that those who constantly decry it and deplore it - including certain immigrants - would just feck off and live in one of the freer, more civilised, more enlightened, more liberal countries in the East - Oh wait a moment - that's where most of the poor oppressed mites fled here from.

Oh well.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The 'West' is far from some utopia, but I just wish that those who constantly decry it and deplore it - including certain immigrants - would just feck off and live in one of the freer, more civilised, more enlightened, more liberal countries in the East - Oh wait a moment - that's where most of the poor oppressed mites fled here from.

Oh well.

Name one 'Liberal' country in the east.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

Name one 'Liberal' country in the east.

Exactly one of the points I was making via my sarcastic post Kizzy.

[GiRTh]

Youtube video

[Crimson Dynamo]

John Stewart, a tv comedian


George Bush, a president of the USA

[MTVN]

America doesn’t do torture. Or rather, where it’s found that a relatively small but misguided number of US officials have practised torture, it doesn’t try and defend it. Because if it does, at that point, America ceases to become America at all.

...

America is the country that nearly tore itself in two over the ending of segregation, and 40 years later elected a black man to the White House. America is the country that bombed Germany and Japan back into the stone age, and then helped rebuild them into two of the great powerhouse economies of the 20th century. America is the country that went to war with itself to keep men enslaved, and then placed itself at the forefront of every major progressive social change that defined the century that followed.

What America is not is a bunch of thugs with a bucket, a dirty towel and leg irons, and a misguided sense of patriotism and sadism in their hearts. America, however much her enemies may long to believe it, is not the Feinstein report.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...itics-say.html

This article

[Crimson Dynamo]

i mean you could say about jail

Its disgusting, locking people,up for 23 hours a day, in a tiny cell, terrible food, no contact with the outside world

are we as bad as the crims?

In the US they kill crims remember. kill them stone dead.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Scrooge

i mean you could say about jail

Its disgusting, locking people,up for 23 hours a day, in a tiny cell, terrible food, no contact with the outside world

are we as bad as the crims?

In the US they kill crims remember. kill them stone dead.

You are correct in your sentiments LT but - and I'm going slightly off topic - are you familiar with the British Penal System as it is now since partial privatisation?

The 'Centre Right' 'Think Tank' 'Reform' will tell you different from what I am going to tell you here, but they have their own capitalist-driven covert agenda, and are speaking pure bollocks.

Prisons now are glorified holiday camps. All thoughts of 'Rehabilitation' have long since been abandoned, but so too now have all pretense of 'Punishment'.

Among other 'official' perks, 'Prisoners' are allowed to wear their own clothing, have Sky Satellite TV, Lap tops and internet access, as well as access to luxuriously equipped gym facilities. But it is the 'unofficial' perks which 'prisoners' freely enjoy,at certain privately run prisons which are incredible and mind-blowing, and more so because although known about by the prison authorities, these 'perks' are ignored in order 'to prevent trouble erupting'.

Tennis balls which have been cut in half, stuffed with heroin and crack cocaine then glued back together have been regularly thrown over the walls at certain prisons, to be later collected by inmates and the contents sold for massive profits by drug dealing convicts within the prison. Drug taking at these prisons is a massive problem.

Prison staff have been aware of this practice, but as said, turn a blind eye for the reasons stated.

Cunning prisoners at these and other privately run prisons also ensure their drug supply from the outside by using the fact that the UK Courts System is also such a huge joke now.

Convicted shoplifters are guaranteed a jail sentence in the Magistrates Court by repeatedly continuing to shoplift - albeit these sentences leniently range from a few days to a few weeks - no matter how many times the offender continues to offend or how many previous convictions for shoplifting the offender has. It's all a laughable game at the tax-payers expense.

Certain shoplifters - ideally those with no drug convictions - are recruited by certain convicted prisoners and the shoplifter -- some only just freshly released from prison for shoplifting - are supplied by third parties with suitably packaged heroin or crack cocaine 'sausages' which he then pushes well up inside his rectum or ---'plugs'. He then goes straight out and shoplifts whilst ensuring that he gets caught in the act. The inevitable happens and he is sentenced to a very short jail term by the local magistrate, and once inside, he pulls out the 'plug' hands it over to his 'employer' and once released is paid by third parties on the outside. The con now has another supply of highly prized drugs which the sale of to other prisoners will net him thousands of pounds.

The freed shoplifter repeats the process.

Another illegal perk ignored by prison authorities are smuggled mobile phones. The majority of 'power prisoners' now have their own mobiles which they use to direct their criminal empires from within prison.

To this Government's credit, they are aware of these matters and others - though they might not detail as much - and they have reversed an earlier pledge to fully privatise prisons and have begun a process of removing contracts from certain private companies for the running of certain prisons and are returning them to state control.

They are being heavily criticized for this decision by the Howard League For Penal Reform and - as stated earlier - 'Reform' -- both of which have their own agenda for doing so.

Incidentally, my knowledge on this - as with my knowledge on Islamic 'Fifth Columnists' hails from the 'horse's mouths' - in this case, two prison officer friends themselves who work at two different, privately run prisons.

It's a nice old world 'innit'?

[arista]

Well done the Lame Duck President
he says after the worse ever Terrorist attack
we did not know what was next
so we had to use methods,
some were wrong.




But at least he accepts it

[user104658]

Yeah, back in the old days when prisons were horrific places, there was far less crime. ...

I feel the need to explicitly point out, if this is not already clear, that the above is sarcasm and that in the past, let's say Victorian times when prison conditions were fairly awful, crime was still rife. As it is in countries where the prison systems are highly unpleasant e.g. many South American countries, like Brazil, which has problems with crime (both petty and organised) that makes crime in the UK seem paltry.

Not saying our prison systems are ideal BUT punitive imprisonment simply does not deter crime. It breaks people and all but ensures that non-violent petty criminals, when they are released, will have a tendency towards violence. It's a mistake. But a mistake that many people want to see, because people by their very nature are vengeful creatures, rather than problem solvers.

[Northern Monkey]

Never mind human rights.Western countrys need to defend themselves against these feckers blowing us up.If that means torture then torture away.If it means shooting,Blowing up or imprisoning whatever stops these worms killing us is good for me.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Never mind human rights.Western countrys need to defend themselves against these feckers blowing us up.If that means torture then torture away.If it means shooting,Blowing up or imprisoning whatever stops these worms killing us is good for me.

Except we tried that before and it ended up with IS taking power. If we use the same tactics against IS, then we'll just have a more extreme group rise from it's ashes. Brutality is not the answer since extremists will just use every drone strike and operation as recruitment material and stories like this will only make things worse.

Ideologies matter, if we're gonna advocate human rights and freedom then we must practice those ideals because the only way to keep these extremist groups down is to show the people of the middle east we aren't the monsters we're made out to be but that's hard to do when we're torturing people freely and using Drone strikes to kill groups of innocent people in the hopes of getting at a few terrorists. Our actions have led us to the IS crisis and history will only repeat itself if we are brutal in our approach to dealing with them.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Except we tried that before and it ended up with IS taking power. If we use the same tactics against IS, then we'll just have a more extreme group rise from it's ashes. Brutality is not the answer since extremists will just use every drone strike and operation as recruitment material and stories like this will only make things worse.

Ideologies matter, if we're gonna advocate human rights and freedom then we must practice those ideals because the only way to keep these extremist groups down is to show the people of the middle east we aren't the monsters we're made out to be but that's hard to do when we're torturing people freely and using Drone strikes to kill groups of innocent people in the hopes of getting at a few terrorists. Our actions have led us to the IS crisis and history will only repeat itself if we are brutal in our approach to dealing with them.

So,If a terror suspect who has key information has been caught and is prepared to die before he gives any information about an attack or future attacks,Then what do you do?Just let him off?Or do you extract any information possible in order to save your citizens lives.
How could any leader just sit back and let terrorists kill hundreds or thousands of their people with no response?They would lose the confidence of the people very fast.
The first job of a president/prime minister should be the protection of its own people.
Letting them get away with murder will only encourage them to attack us more.
Leaders need to prevent attacks any way they can.These people will attack us wether we fight back or roll over and take it.I'd take fighting back any day.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

So,If a terror suspect who has key information has been caught and is prepared to die before he gives any information about an attack or future attacks,Then what do you do?Just let him off?Or do you extract any information possible in order to save your citizens lives.
How could any leader just sit back and let terrorists kill hundreds or thousands of their people with no response?They would lose the confidence of the people very fast.
The first job of a president/prime minister should be the protection of its own people.
Letting them get away with murder will only encourage them to attack us more.
Leaders need to prevent attacks any way they can.These people will attack us wether we fight back or roll over and take it.I'd take fighting back any day.

Like it's been said earlier in the thread, torture isn't even that effective or reliable since chances are the suspects being tortured will simply tell the torturer what they want to hear whether it's true or not but that doesn't matter is torture isn't about getting information, it's about bloodlust and sadism dressed up as a warped sense of justice.

I won't engage in silly hypothetical situations since we'll just go around in circles and they are pointless. I will say this though, I do hope our leaders, iin this situation, would be smarter than to go with your overly simplistic 'KILL 'EM ALL' strategy. If problems could be solved so easily through war then we'd be going to war every other week.

You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers. Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully lest their fall gives rise to a group that's far worse.

[kirklancaster]

QUOTE=Dezzy;7414037]Like it's been said earlier in the thread, torture isn't even that effective or reliable since chances are the suspects being tortured will simply tell the torturer what they want to hear whether it's true or not but that doesn't matter is torture isn't about getting information, it's about bloodlust and sadism dressed up as a warped sense of justice.

Yes, sometimes mistakes are made by our Intelligence Services, and the FBI and CIA, and yes, sometimes suspects being 'intensely interrogated' (torture' is such a nasty word) will say anything to gain respite, but to say that 'intense interrogation' is that effective or reliable is untrue, because sometimes it absolutely does yield vital information:

In August 1998, al-Qaeda terrorist Mohammed Sadiq Odeh was arrested in Pakistan. Under FBI ‘interrogation’, Odeh provided details of bin Laden's international terror network, as well as detailing bin Laden's role major bombing atrocities. Completely due to this vital information, the subsequent tracking down, arrest and interrogation of other terrorist suspects have yielded more equally vital information, and as a direct result, U.S. intelligence has since foiled many al-Qaeda plots, including one designed to disrupt millennium celebrations in December 1999.

How many thousands of lives have been saved and how many millions of dollars by Odeh's information?

Oh... And how sweet it is, that the end can sometimes justify the means.

I do confess to being a little puzzled though by how terms like; "bloodlust" and "sadism" are freely used as descriptors by certain people on here, when it comes to criticising Western efforts to save lives and defeat terrorists, but the same terms are never, ever used by the same people to describe the vile actions of terrorists.

Why, some people even have a 'hissy fit' if anyone dares to refer to terrorists as 'Monsters' or 'Demons' - even when they have just beheaded yet another bowed and beaten, terrified, innocent victim, or even when they have just cold-bloodedly executed over 200 terrified and innocent schoolchildren and set ablaze an innocent teacher or two.

I wonder why that is?

"I won't engage in silly hypothetical situations since we'll just go around in circles and they are pointless. I will say this though, I do hope our leaders, iin this situation, would be smarter than to go with your overly simplistic 'KILL 'EM ALL' strategy. If problems could be solved so easily through war then we'd be going to war every other week."

I think our leaders have been 'smarter' - in using 'intense interrogation' techniques to try to elicit vital information from suspected terrorists for example - but their efforts to cut short this 'war' by these and other techniques are being foiled and hindered by certain parties within the West who are criticising them for such 'smart' techniques.

It's a good job that we still live in a free, liberal democratic country which allows such voices of dissent - despite the evil efforts of the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists to conquer us and replace that democracy with their own oppressive and barbaric regime and their repressive medieval Sharia Law.

If the unthinkable does happen and they do win this war - try openly criticising the new regime then.

"You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers. Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully lest their fall gives rise to a group that's far worse."

I will say it again - the idea that dead terrorist Martyrs matter to anyone outside their own organisations, is pure B.S. propaganda. There is absolutely no evidence that they lead to any boost in recruitment. Nor is there any evidence that the memory of martyrs endures. Who remembers Bobby Sands?

All your statement does is weaken the West's position and aids the terrorists cause.

And what do you actually mean, when you write: "You can't make make martyrs out of extremists, (if) you torture or kill them? Their allies will use their sacrifice to recruit more soldiers.”

So not only must we not ‘intensely interrogate’ these terrorists we also cannot kill them. So are you proposing that in a battle when these terrorists are firing at our forces, or if a nutjack suicide bomber is driving a car towards them laden with half a ton of explosives, that our troops should throw bags of marshmallows at them for fear that the terrorists will recruit more terrorists if we “fight fire with fire’ and shoot to kill?

And perhaps you would kindly explain to me just what you mean by; “Groups like IS need to be dealt with carefully”?

What does that actually mean?

Finally, what do you actually mean by “Lest their fall gives rise to a group that’s far worse”?

Are you proposing; that we don’t ‘intensely interrogate’ them to extract vital information which could aid our defeat of them, and that we don’t kill them, and we treat them ‘carefully’, so that they do not fall?

If you don’t mean that, please explain what you do mean because I am genuinely confused..

[lostalex]

Wow!, A government spying agency lied. ****ing hell. SPIES LIE, OMFG. thank gawd we all know the truth now. or do we?

[lostalex]

Would you lie to protect the ones you love? I would.

That's not evil, that's human.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Would you lie to protect the ones you love? I would.

That's not evil, that's human.

I totally agree Alex. They're being slagged for the actions they took in order to try to protect the ones complaining.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I totally agree Alex. They're being slagged for the actions they took in order to try to protect the ones complaining.

That's just more hysterical rationalising.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

That's just more hysterical rationalising.

Yes a Tube up your rectum
forcing you to tell the CIA
something you know feck all about
is America in the Shame