[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Agree........yes if we carefully examine the whole spectrum of rights we would as you say find there are areas where men have less rights (like in Child custody) and areas where women are still under represented.

So taken as a whole I think we need the fight to be more of a general nature where both Men and Womens rights are represented in the areas where they are still lacking.

Either way I still associate the word Feminism with the battle to increase womens rights at the expense of everyone else's regardless of whether there is a desperate need or not.






.

Yeah, maybe it is time for the word to evolve like the cause has, to include both sexes fight for equality

[the truth]

yes agree with the posts on equality, equality for all, bravo

[Crimson Dynamo]

I like blonde feminists with a nicely turned ankle and perky do daas

[Cal.]

No bc women are better than men bye

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Sorry, but I do not believe this is the definition of a feminist.....

well go look it up in a dictionary, or on google, it's the definition


I can understand the reason people don't like the word feminism, because it's more striving towards full equality, but it's still women which are more oppressed then men, so

Originally Posted by the truth

it hasn't been about equal rights for decades, its now about getting everyone for women..otherwise why isn't male oppression ever seriously talked about, debated , considered? all the points I keep repeating about male suicide rates, death rates, divorce and family figures are barely mentioned in mainstream debate...why?because people are even more afraid of feminists than they are radical islam

Sorry, but how are men oppressed more than women?

Women in some parts of the world can't even leave the house without a man by their side and if they do they're punished

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Smithy

well go look it up in a dictionary, or on google, it's the definition

" The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of the equality of the sexes." - Oxford

As I said before there's more than a slight irony in talking about equality when the definition itself is not equal, by only mentioning women. I advocate women's AND men's rights on the grounds of equality. The definition above suggests that there are no imbalances that favour women and (in the western world) that is simply false. There may be MORE imbalances favouring men, but that is irrelevant, if they exist at all the other way around then only mentioning women's rights in regard to equality is questionable.

If feminism is truly about pure equality, then it is a misnomer. I am not a feminist unless I can also, at the same time, be a "masculist". I would much rather there was a term that encompassed both without using needless gender-based terminology.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Smithy

well go look it up in a dictionary, or on google, it's the definition


I can understand the reason people don't like the word feminism, because it's more striving towards full equality, but it's still women which are more oppressed then men, so



Sorry, but how are men oppressed more than women?

Women in some parts of the world can't even leave the house without a man by their side and if they do they're punished

read my posts again, in western society I said men are FAR FAR MORE oppressed than women...not in backwards neanderthal middle eastern countries...these are 2 totally different worlds

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by the truth

read my posts again, in western society I said men are FAR FAR MORE oppressed than women...not in backwards neanderthal middle eastern countries...these are 2 totally different worlds

Ok but yet again you didn't explain HOW men are more oppressed, please do explain

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Ok but yet again you didn't explain HOW men are more oppressed, please do explain

I did re read my posts..........they get billions less spent on their medical health even though they get cancer far more frequently....men die younger in every country on earth, they are discriminated against as fathers, they lose over 80% of divorce cases, over 80% of them lose their home , even though the majority of men have to still continue paying the mortgage so theyre enslaved for life, they also lose over 80% fo custody battles as thr law and law courts and culture is massively biased in favour of women and mothers.....the ratio of organizations and charities supporting women outnumbers those for men by a ratio of over 50 to 1.....its disgusting. women always use the sexism card when it suits them to get their way....people do not deal with the facts. womenonly shortlists for members of parliament is actually illegal and contravenes all equality laws. its a fundamental part of our democracy yet if a man lives in certain counties hes not even allowed to run for parliament and debate the issues......these are just the tip of the iceberg...

culturally woman can say anything they like about men, like and slander them and the man is treated as guilty until proven innocent and his name slandered....yet men get sacked for the slightest trivial comment or joke...weve seen the male hate and the bias for years now....ive seen tv documentaries with studio audiences cheering for men killers in their jail cells....laugh at men who died after having their penises mutilated, endless streams of male hate and bigotry....yet a man makes a joke about a female lineswoman and he gets sacked and loses his home and his wife leaves him and his life falls apart....the endless bile that if we had women politicians thered beno wars? really? Maggie thatcher? the argentian prime minister? 98% of the votes on the Iraq and afghan wars 98% of the votes by female mps voted in favour of the illegal war....biased sexist drivel

[billy123]

Originally Posted by Smithy

well go look it up in a dictionary, or on google, it's the definition

Unless we are looking up definitions on an American website or using an American dictionary or all of a sudden we are all Americans no it isnt you are wrong.

The definition of feminist in the Oxford English Dictionary is:
"A person who supports feminism."

The definition of feminism in the Oxford English Dictionary is:
"The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

Of course i support gender equality who in their right mind wouldn't but the feminist cause was long ago hijacked by women angry at their failed relationships and taking it out on the world which soiled that entire movement a long time ago so i voted no.

A gender equality movement i think would be a better term.

[JoshBB]

People voting that they aren't are blatant misogynists, especially considering that the OP said to vote using the definitions provided.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

People voting that they aren't are blatant misogynists, especially considering that the OP said to vote using the definitions provided.

This is another reason that people hate 'feminists'

There is absolutely no need for petty name calling just because people might not believe in the same thing as you. This is the main thing I hate about internet logic and it's the main reason I never cared for 'feminism' in the first place.

How about instead of calling people pathetic names which are all just your opinion, try and inspire them and educate them like others have done in this thread. I don't think people who don't believe in 'feminism' are 'blatant misogynists' as you say. If you read what half of them said, you'll find that they are very open minded and understanding indeed.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

People voting that they aren't are blatant misogynists, especially considering that the OP said to vote using the definitions provided.

So if I make a poll saying "are you a neo-nazi yes/no" and then follow it up by saying "in this poll, neo-nazi means a lovely fair person who believes in peace and equality for all"

...

Will you vote yes, or no? If you vote no then you are racist.

[Jack_]

Yes I am a feminist and it's important to note that there are many types of feminists, not just radical raving mid life crisis divorcees that hate men. And yes that is a stereotype. And it has ruined the image of feminism because that's all people picture, it's almost a dirty word or thing to be associated with and that's wrong.

[GypsyGoth]

Well TS if you believe in gender equality, you're a feminist, you may not like it, but you are. And yep you can be a masculist, however I don't believe masculism strives for equality.

Also do you get just as upset about the word mankind, or is that fine because it's a male word?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Well TS if you believe in gender equality, you're a feminist, you may not like it, but you are.

Because... who says so? You? I'm sorry but I disagree. I'm certainly not by the dictionary definition, as I pointed out above, and also, it is not insignificant that the word has been "hijacked". I reserve the right to refrain from referring to myself as a feminist - the word has been poisoned. I haven't voted on the poll at all for that reason - I'm hesitant to vote "no" because the implication then is that I don't believe in rights for women, but I refuse to arbitrarily refer to myself as "a feminist" (or as anything else, for that matter) just because a forum poll or a dubious definition says that I "must".

What it amounts to, ironically, is anti-male point scoring. "You HAVE to call yourself a feminist, so HAH!"

And yep you can be a masculist, however I don't believe masculism strives for equality.

"You don't believe" that it strives for equality so you wouldn't use that word. The dictionary definition, and the exact etymology, of the word is identical to feminism only advocating rights for males. Nothing more, nothing less. The point, though, is that I wouldn't use the word at all because I am aware of the connotations. Likewise, I don't believe that "modern feminism" strives for equality, either, hence I don't use the word "feminist" to describe myself.

Either way - apparently it's OK for you to reject the word "Masculist" but NOT OK for me to reject the word "Feminist"? Massive double standard.

Also do you get just as upset about the word mankind, or is that fine because it's a male word?

I don't get "upset" about the term "feminist", I just wouldn't refer to myself as one. It's also a bit contentious because whilst, yes, the word "mankind" is obviously focussed on the "male" in terms of etymology, it does actually in modern usage refer to all humans without exception. Feminism - despite the spammed (and cherry picked) dictionary definitions in this thread - is demonstrably NOT always focussed on equality for both genders. The word might be used as such by many people, but it is a FACT that there are large groups flying the banner of feminism who have absolutely no interest in "equality". The word has become a symbol and that symbol has been corrupted by people with other agendas. "You may not like it, but it has".

For the record, though... I personally would choose the word "humanity" over "mankind".

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because... who says so? You? I'm sorry but I disagree. I'm certainly not by the dictionary definition, as I pointed out above, and also, it is not insignificant that the word has been "hijacked". I reserve the right to refrain from referring to myself as a feminist - the word has been poisoned. I haven't voted on the poll at all for that reason - I'm hesitant to vote "no" because the implication then is that I don't believe in rights for women, but I refuse to arbitrarily refer to myself as "a feminist" (or as anything else, for that matter) just because a forum poll or a dubious definition says that I "must".

What it amounts to, ironically, is anti-male point scoring. "You HAVE to call yourself a feminist, so HAH!"



"You don't believe" that it strives for equality so you wouldn't use that word. The dictionary definition, and the exact etymology, of the word is identical to feminism only advocating rights for males. Nothing more, nothing less. The point, though, is that I wouldn't use the word at all because I am aware of the connotations. Likewise, I don't believe that "modern feminism" strives for equality, either, hence I don't use the word "feminist" to describe myself.

Either way - apparently it's OK for you to reject the word "Masculist" but NOT OK for me to reject the word "Feminist"? Massive double standard.




I don't get "upset" about the term "feminist", I just wouldn't refer to myself as one. It's also a bit contentious because whilst, yes, the word "mankind" is obviously focussed on the "male" in terms of etymology, it does actually in modern usage refer to all humans without exception. Feminism - despite the spammed (and cherry picked) dictionary definitions in this thread - is demonstrably NOT always focussed on equality for both genders. The word might be used as such by many people, but it is a FACT that there are large groups flying the banner of feminism who have absolutely no interest in "equality". The word has become a symbol and that symbol has been corrupted by people with other agendas. "You may not like it, but it has".

For the record, though... I personally would choose the word "humanity" over "mankind".

All of the people here who identify as being feminist want equality. We're not trying to trick you here, or get you to sell your soul, we are simply stating that we are feminists and we want equality between the genders. There is no need for us to cherry pick definitions, we're happy with the word. If it's a label you don't like at all, fine, I'll never think of you as a feminist again.

And the masculism groups I've encountered online are nothing like feminism, they actually come across as antifeminist groups, while feminist groups tackle issues in society that effect us all, masculism groups seem to only want to tackle feminism. So I don't reject you calling yourself one of those at all, I only mentioned that they don't stand for equality, because they don't seem interested in that. And if you look at it this way, in a patriarchal society, if you try to increase the rights of women, you will come to a state of equality, however if you just focus on male rights, then the society becomes more unfair.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

All of the people here who identify as being feminist want equality. We're not trying to trick you here, or get you to sell your soul, we are simply stating that we are feminists and we want equality between the genders. There is no need for us to cherry pick definitions, we're happy with the word. If it's a label you don't like at all, fine, I'll never think of you as a feminist again.

And the masculism groups I've encountered online are nothing like feminism, they actually come across as antifeminist groups, while feminist groups tackle issues in society that effect us all, masculism groups seem to only want to tackle feminism. So I don't reject you calling yourself one of those at all, I only mentioned that they don't stand for equality, because they don't seem interested in that.

I don't think anyone HERE is looking for anything but equality but to say that no one flying the banner of feminism - rightly or not - is actually seeking female supremacy just isn't true. And if you haven't encountered THOSE women / groups online... Then you haven't been looking very hard. They are everywhere, especially all over Social Networking. Of course you're right about the masculist groups being anti-feminism but, again, that's actually part of my reason for not using those terms. These groups are a backlash against what is seen as aggressive feminist groups seeking to redress the imbalance between men and women by "beating men down" rather than elevating women. I fully believe that if groups seeking gender equality were to rebrand in a gender-neutral manner, there would be FAR fewer of these male "backlash" groups. Being unwilling to even consider it seems somewhat stubborn, like there is some sort of problem with removing the "fem" from "feminism", which strangely is sort of... Sexist.

Anyway, my point is that I am NOT a masculist for the same reasons that I am not a feminist. I believe in equality - therefore, I must either be both, or neither. I am neither.

And if you look at it this way, in a patriarchal society, if you try to increase the rights of women, you will come to a state of equality, however if you just focus on male rights, then the society becomes more unfair.

Again, I disagree. This assumes that there are zero examples of women having more rights, or being treated preferentially to, men... Which is simply untrue. I'm not denying that we have a somewhat patriarchal society and I fully accept that women receive unfair treatment more often than men, but so say that it's "always" the case is just false. If you only focus on increasing the rights of women, you will NEVER achieve equality, because there ARE areas that need attention for men. Family law has been used as an example here, and I will use my example from earlier again - in TV / Movies is is still "acceptable" to show a female character hitting / slapping, even punching, her partner as "comedy". The man takes his beating and then usually still stands there with a guilty look on his face like "yup, I deserved that because I was bad!". Can you - honestly - imagine a film that features a male lead character punching his wife in the face, and it being seen as anything but horrific / disgusting? Of course not. Group of women sitting around discussing men's tiny peenies / sexual ineptitude? Funny! Men sitting around discussing women in that way? BOOOO how awful!

Men do - on occasion - get the raw deal. To reiterate, I don't agree with "The Truth", I don't think men have it worse or even as bad, but I do KNOW that there are two sides to the coin and that purely elevating women without addressing sexism against men will never result in equality. And that's why feminism is a misnomer.

We should not be focussing on the "rights of women" or the "rights of men" at all. We should be focussing on the rights of PEOPLE, blind to gender, and ensuring that those rights are equal for EVERY person. Feminism is the wrong word and, even with the best of intentions, clinging to it is counter productive. It breeds resentment, misunderstanding, division and prompts exactly the sort of back-lash groups you mentioned.

[Kizzy]

yes, the word "mankind" is obviously focussed on the "male" in terms of etymology, it does actually in modern usage refer to all humans without exception.

Yes due to the patriarchy of setting men before women, the correct term is humankind.

[Firewire]

tried five guys today, hotdog and chips. very expensive but very good.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Firewire

tried five guys today, hotdog and chips. very expensive but very good.

It's taking me way too long to figure out how this relates to the topic.

I give up. Tell me.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Firewire

tried five guys today, hotdog and chips. very expensive but very good.

not a feminist then?

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

not a feminist then?

This was supposed to be in the "what's for lunch" thread oops

[Northern Monkey]

I also think 'humankind' is a better phrase as it is equal for both genders.Feminist is certainly not and i do believe in equality for men and women but i am not feminist.I am an 'equalist'.Equality for both sexes.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

I also think 'humankind' is a better phrase as it is equal for both genders.Feminist is certainly not and i do believe in equality for men and women but i am not feminist.I am an 'equalist'.Equality for both sexes.

An Equaliser