[Crimson Dynamo]

What you have to ask is

Just who is the judge of what is the real Islam?

Because if the answer is a made up God then you know you are up sh1t creek without a paddle

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

What you have to ask is

Just who is the judge of what is the real Islam?

Because if the answer is a made up God then you know you are up sh1t creek without a paddle

This could literally be said of any religion but okay...

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This could literally be said of any religion but okay...

LT hates all Religions tbf, I've seen his posts about others and his not very flattering towards them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

LT hates all Religions tbf, I've seen his posts about others and his not very flattering towards them.

i dont hate the COE, no one can

its impossible

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This could literally be said of any religion but okay...

It could but not every religion is creating terror and death like ISlam is at the moment

If you have a "god" that cant be questioned or wrong, a book that is the solution, is unalterable and is perfect and a religion that cannot be questioned then it will and does lead to violence and death when it is questioned or comes up against those who will not bend to its will.


to say its peaceful is fanciful

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

It could but not every religion is creating terror and death like ISlam is at the moment

If you have a "god" that cant be questioned or wrong, a book that is the solution, is unalterable and is perfect and a religion that cannot be questioned then it will and does lead to violence and death when it is questioned or comes up against those who will not bend to its will.


to say its peaceful is fanciful

It's the people that are using the religion to justify their terrorism that are violent but you know that already.

Every major Muslim organisation has denounced the actions of IS and Al Queda ETC and they do it every time there's an attack. IS is as representative of Islam as the IRA (I bring it up due to how all Irish people were treated in the UK in response to the IRA attacks) is to Ireland or these mass shooters to young white males.

Again, your last paragraph applies to any religion ever.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's the people that are using the religion to justify their terrorism that are violent but you know that already.

Every major Muslim organisation has denounced the actions of IS and Al Queda ETC and they do it every time there's an attack. IS is as representative of Islam as the IRA (I bring it up due to how all Irish people were treated in the UK in response to the IRA attacks) is to Ireland or these mass shooters to young white males.

Again, your last paragraph applies to any religion ever.

Of course its people as gods dont exist but i am afraid the religionists "think" they do.


Go back to the start of the last century and RC was the most dangerous religion


but now its Islam and its not likely to change

[Crimson Dynamo]

and dont forget all the civil war that is going on within this great religion of peace

[Crimson Dynamo]

Look the reality is that things that tell you to believe in the impossible will always end up fckd up


walk around say Luton with a placard that says that the Koran is fake and wrong and see how peaceful things get


do the same in Norwich with one that says The Bible is fake and wrong and you may get the odd stare

its aint science but i bet i am right

[Novo]

Don't know about Islam but these Catholics are very evil indeed trying to reclaim our British Northern Ireland and hang the Tricolour outside Belfast, you can take that horrible Irish football team Celtic back to Ireland with you instead and make them play in your league and leave Northern Ireland to the Queen

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by NovoBaratheon

Don't know about Islam but these Catholics are very evil indeed trying to reclaim our British Northern Ireland and hang the Tricolour outside Belfast, you can take that horrible Irish football team Celtic back to Ireland with you instead and make them play in your league and leave Northern Ireland to the Queen

take hibs too

[AProducer'sWetDream]

I would have to say no. But neither is Christianity or most other major religions, in my opinion.

A lot of people (I don't know whether it's a majority or a tiny minority) try to force their religious beliefs and values on others, so in that respect, I don't think religion as a whole is peaceful.

[jennyjuniper]

It's MEANT to be, but as is usual with any religion, the fruit and nut cases decipher it to suit themselves. In fact Buddism is probably the most peaceful religion out there.

[_Tom_]

The easy (and redundant) answer is to say that all religions aren't peaceful or that there are non peaceful people in other religions. But all other major religions have reformed and have been modernised. Christianity had a reformation which purged it of its most intolerant and violent aspects, hence the New Testament. Pointing to intolerant passages in the Old Testament which no one has acted on for hundreds of years is not an argument. Islam is the only major religion that hasn't reformed their doctrine to make it compatible with modern civilisation. It is in dire need of a reformation.

Radicalism is not representative of all Muslims, but illiberal ideals, violence and extremism are representative of Islam and, unfortunately, many Muslims do condone such things. At least 10 Muslim countries impose the death penalty for apostasy and for homosexuality - and stone women to death for allegedly committing adultery. Executing people for being gay or for not believing the same thing as you is violent and wrong. It's not peaceful. Polls have shown that the majority of Muslims of various countries support the death penalty for these supposed crimes.

Islam is an ideology. We are allowed to scrutinise, even ridicule other religions like Christianity and Scientology. But not Islam. Why should it be above criticism? No ideology should. It should be just as easily mocked as any other faith. It's far easier to act as if critics of Islam have a problem with Muslims as people than it is to accept the uncomfortable truth.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by _Tom_

The easy (and redundant) answer is to say that all religions aren't peaceful or that there are non peaceful people in other religions. But all other major religions have reformed and have been modernised. Christianity had a reformation which purged it of its most intolerant and violent aspects, hence the New Testament. Pointing to intolerant passages in the Old Testament which no one has acted on for hundreds of years is not an argument. Islam is the only major religion that hasn't reformed their doctrine to make it compatible with modern civilisation. It is in dire need of a reformation.

Radicalism is not representative of all Muslims, but illiberal ideals, violence and extremism are representative of Islam and, unfortunately, many Muslims do condone such things. At least 10 Muslim countries impose the death penalty for apostasy and for homosexuality - and stone women to death for allegedly committing adultery. Executing people for being gay or for not believing the same thing as you is violent and wrong. It's not peaceful. Polls have shown that the majority of Muslims of various countries support the death penalty for these supposed crimes.

Islam is an ideology. We are allowed to scrutinise, even ridicule other religions like Christianity and Scientology. But not Islam. Why should it be above criticism? No ideology should. It should be just as easily mocked as any other faith. It's far easier to act as if critics of Islam have a problem with Muslims as people than it is to accept the uncomfortable truth.

I somehow doubt Mohamed will return anytime soon to deliver the New Quran Maybe someone should go into a mosque and ask Him for a copy...

If Islam were to become more modernized, it would have to be done in a manner that does not take away from what it is, i.e. not merely mimicking other religions. In many ways, Islam's identity is the direct antithesis to those major religions. The watered down version of Christianity we have in the US called 'non-denominational', the emergence of prosperity gospel and the general focus on personal happiness, good feelings and wealth would make most traditional Muslim's skin crawl.

I think that's the attractiveness of the religion for some. It's for those who believe in moralistic principles and older/traditional ways of looking at things.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but is there a Muslim Pope of sorts that can get everyone on the same page as to how to best interpret and communicate Muslim values to the rest of the world. I see it happening eventually actually... some sort of figurehead rising up and becoming the face of all Muslim's... hopefully it is not someone from the ashes of radicalism.

Edit: Very good post by the way.

[Kizzy]

Thousands of Muslims from around the world converged on the UK for a convention where they rejected extremism and violence of terror groups such as Isis.

More than 30,000 members of the Ahmadiyya Islamic movement met at Oakland Farm in Hampshire for a three-day convention, the 50th time the annual event has taken place.

On the final day, attendees were led by the global Caliph of the movement in a vow of peace and and a pledge of allegiance to their home countries "The only thing the terrorists are achieving is to completely violate the teachings of the Holy Quran and of the Holy Prophet Muhammad," His Holiness Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad told attendees, according to the MailOnline.

"Let it be clear that they are not practising Islam, rather it seems as though they have invented their own hate-filled and poisonous religion."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7191306.html

[Livia]

They had a convention. Well... that'll show IS. 30,000 of them having a weekend away is probably not going to have much of an impact on the millions of radical Muslims in the world.

[Kizzy]

Have people not been bleating that Muslims are not doing anything to denounce extremist violence?... Then when they do it's not enough :/

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Have people not been bleating that Muslims are not doing anything to denounce extremist violence?... Then when they do it's not enough :/

It doesn't matter what Muslims do, some people feel that they need to hold on to their hate even though it's illogical and hypocritical since we don't make out that all Christians are peadophiles and must atone for a priest feeling up a kid every time it happens. Every time a Chrstian person does a terrible act people will always say 'oh but he isn't a REAL Christian' and they'll basically excuse the religious angle as long as the person is white and christian but ALL Muslims must atone for the acts of an extreme minority.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It doesn't matter what Muslims do, some people feel that they need to hold on to their hate even though it's illogical and hypocritical since we don't make out that all Christians are peadophiles and must atone for a priest feeling up a kid every time it happens. Every time a Chrstian person does a terrible act people will always say 'oh but he isn't a REAL Christian' and they'll basically excuse the religious angle as long as the person is white and christian but ALL Muslims must atone for the acts of an extreme minority.

Is everyone who thinks Islam is a violent faith "hypocritical and illogical"?

Catholic priests don't abuse children in the name of Christianity, Muslim terrorist do kill in the name of Islam. There isn't much of an analogy there, I'm afraid.

People acting in the name of Islam are on a killing spree right now, across the world. And they don't go for the clean kill, they crucify, they dismember, they skin, they cut babies in half in front of their parents... this isn't movie stuff, this is really happening. I've been to Jordan, I've been to the camps... I've heard the sh1t that goes on and I've heard it first hand.

I'm not going to answer your suggestion that, so long as people are white, then that's okay because frankly it's beneath contempt.

Getting together for a weekend and denouncing violence isn't enough. Moderate Muslims need to step up more because it's mostly THEY who are being slaughtered. Those Muslims living the soft life in the West need to speak up for their brothers and sisters in UN camps right now their homes destroyed and their loved ones dead.

The "extreme minority" of which you speak runs into MILLIONS. And every time anyone suggests Islam is dangerous and violent we have post after post suggesting that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. Well... we know that. And we know that 30,000 Muslims "from across the world" getting together and denouncing violence is like me throwing stones into the sea because there are sharks in there.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Livia

Is everyone who thinks Islam is a violent faith "hypocritical and illogical"?

Catholic priests don't abuse children in the name of Christianity, Muslim terrorist do kill in the name of Islam. There isn't much of an analogy there, I'm afraid.

People acting in the name of Islam are on a killing spree right now, across the world. And they don't go for the clean kill, they crucify, they dismember, they skin, they cut babies in half in front of their parents... this isn't movie stuff, this is really happening. I've been to Jordan, I've been to the camps... I've heard the sh1t that goes on and I've heard it first hand.

I'm not going to answer your suggestion that, so long as people are white, then that's okay because frankly it's beneath contempt.

Getting together for a weekend and denouncing violence isn't enough. Moderate Muslims need to step up more because it's mostly THEY who are being slaughtered. Those Muslims living the soft life in the West need to speak up for their brothers and sisters in UN camps right now their homes destroyed and their loved ones dead.

The "extreme minority" of which you speak runs into MILLIONS. And every time anyone suggests Islam is dangerous and violent we have post after post suggesting that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. Well... we know that. And we know that 30,000 Muslims "from across the world" getting together and denouncing violence is like me throwing stones into the sea because there are sharks in there.

one of the best posts I've ever read on here. It's so true.

People do not realise what kind of horrific things go on over there, what they do to families who have a different faith... There are things I've read that have made me physically sick. And I genuinely mean it, i had to stop listening to the interview... if you're squeamish then its best not to read on, but I read that they tie babies legs to each of their parents and pull the parents apart from each other until... you get the picture. And thats not even the worst thing I've heard.

Yes, people of all religions kill, but this is a problem that needs addressing. It's a terrifying thought what they can do if we don't put a stop to it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Is everyone who thinks Islam is a violent faith "hypocritical and illogical"?

Catholic priests don't abuse children in the name of Christianity, Muslim terrorist do kill in the name of Islam. There isn't much of an analogy there, I'm afraid.

People acting in the name of Islam are on a killing spree right now, across the world. And they don't go for the clean kill, they crucify, they dismember, they skin, they cut babies in half in front of their parents... this isn't movie stuff, this is really happening. I've been to Jordan, I've been to the camps... I've heard the sh1t that goes on and I've heard it first hand.

I'm not going to answer your suggestion that, so long as people are white, then that's okay because frankly it's beneath contempt.

Getting together for a weekend and denouncing violence isn't enough. Moderate Muslims need to step up more because it's mostly THEY who are being slaughtered. Those Muslims living the soft life in the West need to speak up for their brothers and sisters in UN camps right now their homes destroyed and their loved ones dead.

The "extreme minority" of which you speak runs into MILLIONS. And every time anyone suggests Islam is dangerous and violent we have post after post suggesting that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. Well... we know that. And we know that 30,000 Muslims "from across the world" getting together and denouncing violence is like me throwing stones into the sea because there are sharks in there.

Christian terrorism is a thing, in fact there's more deaths in the US attributed to Christian Terrorism than there is Islamic Terrorism. Every religion has it's lunatics, to make out that Islam is worse is just plain ignorant especially how you're discounting the fact that millions of Muslims regularly oppose terrorism but that doesn't matter because you said so and that's apparently that.

How would you feel if someone made out that you needed to be apologetic for Israel's frankly shocking civilian casualty ratio against Palestinian civilians just because you're a jew? You'd be outraged and you'd be right to be since why should you be tarred with a brush just because of your religion? Why do you believe this is an acceptable attitude to have towards Muslims?

It's hypocritical and there's no way around it, as for suggesting there's millions of IS supporters, where's the evidence? More Muslims have been murdered by IS than any other denomination or race, Muslims have more reason to oppose IS than anyone else because they've suffered more at their hands.

What are Muslims meant to do if denouncing violence is not enough? What would you have them do? You seem to have all the answers so share with the class. I'm guessing the answer is that nothing will be ever be enough.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Christian terrorism is a thing, in fact there's more deaths in the US attributed to Christian Terrorism than there is Islamic Terrorism. Every religion has it's lunatics, to make out that Islam is worse is just plain ignorant especially how you're discounting the fact that millions of Muslims regularly oppose terrorism but that doesn't matter because you said so and that's apparently that.

How would you feel if someone made out that you needed to be apologetic for Israel's frankly shocking civilian casualty ratio against Palestinian civilians just because you're a jew? You'd be outraged and you'd be right to be since why should you be tarred with a brush just because of your religion? Why do you believe this is an acceptable attitude to have towards Muslims?

It's hypocritical and there's no way around it, as for suggesting there's millions of IS supporters, where's the evidence? More Muslims have been murdered by IS than any other denomination or race, Muslims have more reason to oppose IS than anyone else because they've suffered more at their hands.

What are Muslims meant to do if denouncing violence is not enough? What would you have them do? You seem to have all the answers so share with the class. I'm guessing the answer is that nothing will be ever be enough.

Firstly, it's grossly unfair that you should drag Israel into the discussion simply because I'm Jewish. But as you have.... I am REGULARLY put into that position. I'm regularly put into that position on this forum.

I WANT Muslims to stand up and be counted. I don't want them to be the target of Islamophobia... especially as it is their brothers and sisters (their own term) who are being killed. But the fact remains that Islam is the number one biggest threat to the West at the moment. In the best-case scenario, there are millions of radicals in Islam. If that's not a dangerous position to be in, I don't know what is.

I don't have all the answers and it's a childish comment to say I think I have.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

...
... as for suggesting there's millions of IS supporters, where's the evidence? ....

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and it is recognised by security services around the world that around 7% of them are radicalised and in some way supporting terrorism. You work it out.

Of course, I won't be asking you for actual evidence that I'm wrong.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, it's grossly unfair that you should drag Israel into the discussion simply because I'm Jewish.

Originally Posted by Livia

Moderate Muslims need to step up more because it's mostly THEY who are being slaughtered. Those Muslims living the soft life in the West need to speak up for their brothers and sisters in UN camps right now their homes destroyed and their loved ones dead.

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy in these statements?