[Maru]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

Aside from what I specifically quoted, I'm not sure what the point/where the comparison being made is. Are there alleged Trump victims who have come out to say that they consented to being touched? Were there even stories to suggest this may have been the case? (if even for part of the incident)

I'm totally on board with the idea that there are women in the professional world who send mixed signals (engage in idle flirtation) with male admirers in order to move up the chain... happens everyday, but I don't know where Miley Cyrus falls in that category. She is performing on-stage with thousands of people (and witnesses). She can't come back later and go "Well I didn't really want to be groped and actually, I didn't enjoy it either!"

[Mokka]

What my issue with this thread is...
Here is some footage of Miley doing something judged as inappropriate ... no one talked to the people who's hands were in the air to find out if they felt violated or not... and she has not been outwardly accused of sexual assault by her fans.

But because we have this footage....it discredits her opinion on Trump. That is why I said it equates to in a court, her past sexual conduct discrediting her testimony....as happens to many women of sexual assault.
I adore you as a person Kirk... but you and I will never see eye to eye on Trump. I disagree with 99% of your views on him.... but I have never said you aren't entitled to your opinion... and I wouldn't look through the history of your life to find dirt on you to suggest you aren't entitled to any opinion at all.

[kirklancaster]

I will respond to each and every one of you but it will take time, and I might as well continue what I started because no doubt, when I've done, I will have other outraged responses to answer too.

But first, I wish to clear up a few misunderstandings about EXACTLY what it is I am saying, and I'll start with Miley Cyrus.

Miley Cyrus is - in my opinion - is a 'Publicity *****' who will do or say ANYTHING which generates publicity, keeps her in the limelight and keep her Marquee Value up and those all important dollars rolling in.

I claim, that the outrageous things which she has done thus far off stage and on - in word and deed - have been done to shock, create notoriety and generate publicity for the above reasons.

I also claim, that she is cynically jumping on a 'bandwagon' in her anti-Trump stance for her own reasons, which is to increase her popularity by ingratiating herself with anti-Trump members of the public who aren't particularly fans of hers either, and to generate more publicity which keeps those dollars rolling in.

I claim the above, because of my perception of Miley Cyrus based upon what I have seen and read about her.

If you are a big fan of hers, you may see her differently, but I am not alone in my perceptions of her.

Perhaps, we should take a look, and let anyone who is NOT familiar with her, to judge for themselves whether she is just a singer performing a stage routine or if she is a cynical publicity hound, whose condemnation of Trump is genuine, or for the more cynical reasons which I claim:


"Miley Cyrus is undoubtedly one of the most talked about celebrities in Hollywood at the moment. The former Disney star has been making headlines for her strange behavior for the past year and a half. It all started when Miley discovered ‘twerking’ and decided she needed to show the world that she could twerk, over and over again. After that, Miley continued to shock everyone with her strange behavior and crazy antics. Each new Miley headline has seemingly been stranger than the last, and just when the world thinks, Ms. Cyrus couldn’t possibly shock anyone again, she does.

Here are some of the strangest things Miley Cyrus has done."

The Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky “Performance”

In February 2014, Miley Cyrus did the unthinkable to open up her Bangerz tour in Vancouver. The twenty-one year old, after performing ‘Party In the USA’ simulated giving oral sex to a backup dancer dressed up like Bill Clinton. The Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky scandal occurred in 1998, when Cyrus was only six years old. It’s not clear what point she was trying to make, or who even came up with the disturbing idea, but one thing is for sure; it was strange.

The Constant Crotch Grabs

Since the twenty-one year old kicked off her Bangerz tour on February 14th of this year, she has been photographed constantly grabbing her crotch. It appears the singer is trying to channel her ‘inner’ Michael Jackson and then some. The singer has also appeared to be masturbating during her performance of ‘Love, Party, Money.’ While sitting on the hood of a car, Cyrus rubbed her ‘hood’ – leaving the audience scratching their heads and wondering what exactly they were watching.

Her Wardrobe Choices

To go along with her strange behavior, Miley has paired many peculiar outfits with it. For her 2013 VMA performance, she started out wearing a Chucky Cheese-like-mouse costume. Partway through the performance, she removed it to reveal a matching, latex, nude underwear and bra – which was quite unflattering. The singer also wore a see through white mesh dress with black pasties and black underwear during another performance. No matter what she chooses to wear, one can expect it to be skimpy and that it’ll barely cover anything. This is a bit surprising considering Miley once stated in an interview with ELLE magazine, “A star is someone who doesn’t have to take her clothes off to be sexy, because you naturally have star power.” So, according to Miley, Miley isn’t a star?

The Katy Perry Kiss

In February 2014, when Miley was performing in Los Angeles, Katy Perry was sitting front row. Cyrus walked over to Katy and the two shared a kiss, that became very awkward, very fast. Perry seemingly went in for a peck, while Cyrus went in for much more, causing Katy to quickly pull away. While being interviewed on Australian TV about the kiss, Katy Perry explained how she was shocked when Miley offered up more than a peck, adding, “God knows where that tongue has been. We don’t know. That tongue is infamous!” Cyrus fired back at Katy via Twitter tweeting, “Girl if ur worried abt where tongues have been good thing ur ex boo is ur EX BOO cause we ALL know where THAT… been.” Ouch! The two continued to exchange insults and it doesn’t look like these girls are going to kiss and makeup anytime soon.

The Music Videos

‘We Can’t Stop’ was the first of Miley’s string of strange music videos. It was released on June of 2013 and was jam packed with weird moments, including: Miley making out with a Barbie, Miley wearing a grill, Miley twerking and Miley spanking other females. It was hard to tell if the video was artistic or not. The singer’s ‘Wrecking Ball’ music video was released in September of 2013 and the world couldn’t really make sense of it. The video featured the singer sitting naked on a wrecking ball swinging back and forth. Apparently, she’s just being Miley.

[CENTER]4) The Consumption of Fan’s Underwear

During her February 16th tour performance, a fan threw their thong up on stage, while Miley was singing. Instead of kicking it off stage or leaving it there, like any other person probably would have done. Miley did the inconceivable. She picked them up and put them in her mouth – Gross! It looks like Katy Perry got her answer on where Miley’s tongue has been.

The VMA Performance

When a person utters the words Miley Cyrus and VMA’s in the same sentence, everybody immediately thinks of her 2013 VMA performance with Robin Thicke. This performance was truly shocking and hard to watch. It was full of odd costumes, over the top sexual innuendo, a bizarre foam finger and twerking. Critics claim the young singer went beyond the realm of sexual suggestiveness and nearly entered the world of soft core porn. Miley made it perfectly clear that she cannot stop.

1) The Twerking

Twerking, an aggressive booty shaking dance that peaked in popularity in 2013 due to Miley Cyrus embracing it completely. A home video of Miley twerking in a Unicorn onesie went viral in March of 2013 and after that, the pop singer twerked her way all over the world. Cyrus twerked in her music videos, at the VMA’s, on tour, at Juicy J’s concert and anywhere else she had the room to bend over. Many have criticized Miley’s obsession with twerking, making comments on her “assets” and her race. Jay Z even dissed Cyrus in his song ‘SomeWhereInAmerica,’ when he rapped, “…they see I’m still putting work in, ’cause somewhereinamerica, Miley Cyrus is still twerkin’, ha! Twerk, twerk, twerk, twerk, twerk, Miley, Miley, twerk, twerk, twerk, Miley, Miley, Miley, twerk. Twerk, yeah, ugh-huh. Twerk, Miley, Miley, Miley — Only in America.” Apparently, Jay Z has 99 problems and Miley Cyrus twerking is one.

Now staying with Miley for now, I will claim:

1) Donald Trump by word - and allegedly now by deed - degrades women.

2) Donald Trump by some of his words and actions, is a person with a very low and warped sense of morality.

3) Miley Cyrus by word and deed degrades women.

4) Miley Cyrus by some of her words and deeds, is a person with a very low and warped sense of morality.

Trump is alleged to have committed 'sexual assault' on women though no evidence has yet been brought forward to substantiate these allegations.

Miley Cyrus DEFINITELY sexually assaulted Katy Perry by inserting her tongue into her mouth and throat without prior consent.

Miley Cyrus did not 'casually wander' into a fan's upraised hand during the video in my OP, she was static and the fan stroked Cyrus's crotch. According to the article, Cyrus also allowed fans to touch her breasts.

This is not deemed sexual assault if it was consensual.

According to Trump - if this was not just empty bragging on his part in front of the sycophantic Billy Bush - he was in the habit of kissing women and groping their private parts without their consent.

If this was a regular habit of his over the best part of half a century, given that he is 70 years old, and up to now, only 7 or 8 women have emerged to complain, then it would follow - in my logical mind - that in the case of those women who did not complain then, and have not complained now, then one must assume that there must be an awful lot of women who allowed Trump to kiss or grope them, thereby consenting by default, even allowing for any that may still be too timid to come forward.

In the case of any women who allowed Trump to grope them, or did not object after the fact, then it was consensual, and we need only concern ourselves with those who have come forward to complain.

Something which I hope to cover in the next post.

I any event, I do see correlation in Trump and Cyrus, and I do maintain that - unlike De Niro, Tom Hanks and others - Cyrus is cynically exploiting the Trump situation for her own ends.

[Jamie89]

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

Once again... Jamie articulates what I am thinking much better then I could. Thanks for that.

And... might I add... Kirk, you are making much more of a tweet from Miley than even her fans or people who actually follow her would. If you are saying that she has political pull over people based on her status as a celebrity... I will laugh for days. No one is taking her political views on as their own... at least no member of the voting US electorate... that actually plan on voting.

And I am actually becoming ashamed for this thread based on your last post Kirk, and will not be frequenting it again

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

I really do not think that I could explain what I mean any more clearly Jamie.

Yes, Cyrus is a publicity hound, and yes, I do not believe her comments on Trump have been made for any other reason than those which I have expounded - basically self-promotion and to ingratiate herself with the anti-Trump lobby for the same reason.

I also believe that Cyrus loses any credibility she may have had, when commenting on Trumps ALLEGED and as yet UNPROVEN sexual assaults by her own sexual assault on Katy Perry, and her other highly questionable behaviour.

[Shaun]

How embarrassing.

[Johnnyuk123]

From what i can see from reading Kirk's detailed post is this ....
Miley Cyrus is the last person to be jumping onto the we hate trump wagon. Why is she jumping on it? To get the media attention, a point which Kirk clearly made and a point that i completely agree with 100%. Should she be taken seriously? No she should not. Will many of her fans take her seriously, sadly yes many will. She has a responsibility to her young fans IMO. Is there a single parent on the face of this earth that would let their child leave the house dressed like miley cyrus? or twerk on the playground just like their pop idol that they so admire and aspire to be like? Hell no!
So for me miley (look at me me me i'm naked again) cyrus needs to shut up cover up and start showing some respect to those very impressionable young fans of hers first before targeting a 70yr old man to get some free airtime.

Great post Kirk!

[Pete.]

Miley ended Trump

[Johnnyuk123]

I am also of the opinion that if this pop artist was a man parading around a stage in such a sexual manner in front of millions of young kids like she does all the time then the opinions of many would be very very different ones.

[Tom4784]

Miley is allowed an opinion and desperate attempts of slut shaming her isn't going to make her opinion any less valid. Again, there's a difference between her consenting to being touched and speaking out against sexual abuse, the fact that you think the two are mutually exclusive is troubling to say the least. It's not exactly a bandwagon to hate Trump, everybody that isn't either a racist, bigoted in someway or supporting him as a joke as though he's a gimmick act in X Factor (or. as I suspect in your case, supporting him because your friends do judging from your sudden change of heart) is against Trump. There are no pros to the idea of him being president, only VAST amounts of cons.

[Crimson Dynamo]

To think he actually grabbed a, woman by the pussy (as if you some how could) is as pathetic as the statement

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

To think he actually grabbed a, woman by the pussy (as if you some how could) is as pathetic as the statement

Depends. Is said pussy fat with lots of baggy folds?

[James]

Even if you think Miley Cyrus has double standards, that can't be used as a defence for Trump, because, ultimately Miley's (or any celebrity's) opinion is just one voice, and everyone can make up their own minds.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by James

Even if you think Miley Cyrus has double standards, that can't be used as a defence for Trump, because, ultimately Miley's (or any celebrity's) opinion is just one voice, and everyone can make up their own minds.

Oh, I'm not using that as any 'Defence' of Trump James - merely trying to point out just how weak and useless Cyrus would be in a Court of Law for character assassination purposes if the prosecution had her take the stand against Trump.

The Defence Attorney would destroy her credibility AND assassinate her character.

Not that this would ever happen in a court, but the same applies to her being touted in the Media as some sort of 'credible' spokesperson - in my opinion.

Which - admittedly - is NOT a very popular one on here.

Then again, I was lambasted for claiming that Obama was a Muslim not a Christian as he claimed.

I was lambasted for claiming DIRECT personal knowledge of a mother on benefits with 12 children who was in receipt of over Ł700 per week benefits NOT including Housing Benefits.

I was lambasted for stating that Jihadists were being smuggled into Europe by ISIL.

etc etc.

But I was NOT wrong.

[rusticgal]

It's all hearsay and wild accusations...nothing proven. Clintons a self conceited crook...Trump fires from the hip...I'm with the underdog...sick to death of conformity and the same old promises from fake politicians out for their own gain. Let's see REAL people take charge and maybe we will see change.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

It's all hearsay and wild accusations...nothing proven. Clintons a self conceited crook...Trump fires from the hip...I'm with the underdog...sick to death of conformity and the same old promises from fake politicians out for their own gain. Let's see REAL people take charge and maybe we will see change.

Supporting Donald Trump for president because he isn't a politician is like wanting an Hospital Porter to operate on you because they aren't a surgeon.

Trump is a moron that lies far more than any typical politician, in fact he's brazen about it. He'll outright deny things he's said even when confronted with evidence. Calling him a real person is a bit of a stretch given how much of a liar he is, the fact that he refuses to show his tax returns is likely because he is lying about his wealth too.

[Withano]

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.

Now you have resorted to misrepresenting me - I never said anywhere that Tom Hanks or De Niro or ANY other celebrity who has spoken out about Trump was doing it to increase their likeability.

Quite THE OPPOSITE.

I used De Niro and Tom Hanks as COMPARATORS for Cyrus. If you read what I wrote, ie - They are sincere in their denouncement of Trump.

I also never called Cyrus a 'slag' - that's your Freudian slip.

There is nothing wrong with my vocabulary or my writing ability, so I'm afraid that if anyone still cannot understand what I am saying - despite my very civil reiteration to assist - then that is THEIR problem, not mine.

Or would you have me write in fractured English?

It seems as though there is an attempt to 'bully' me, by sheer weight of opposing numbers, into stating what will suit them instead of what I believe, and now into 'dumbing down' my English, writing ability, and normal writing style, just to please others.

Sorry - No can do on either count

As for 3000 words or 3 pages - this is a very complex topic and one not capable of being addressed in a short little soundbyte or a few uncorroborated comments.

Wordy or not, it seems to have held your attention thus far.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but it is noted by me, that this is not the first and only thread where you have responded to my posts with - shall I say, extraordinary 'vigour'?

I just hope that I have helped put your mind at rest on some of the points you raise in your response.

[kirklancaster]

My sincere thanks to LT, Johnny, BOTS and RusticGal, because it has felt rather lonely on here.

Thank you for some balance.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

My sincere thanks to LT, Johnny, BOTS and RusticGal, because it has felt rather lonely on here.

Thank you for some balance.

People are allowed to disagree with you, I don't see you complaining about 'balance' when you're 'teaming up' with other members against Kizzy for example...

This is the debates section, Kirk. If you aren't willing to stand your ground and defend your point of view then it might not be the right section for you.

[bots]

I definitely think that the media train has been mobilised to attack Trump, I also think that celebrities have jumped on a bandwagon to attack him, when they really had no reason whatsoever to go public with their opinions.

Are they entitled to an opinion - of course, is Trump a class A despicable character - it sure looks that way, and it was that way long before the recent allegations surfaced.

The problem really is with such one sided bias, it is puzzling why there is a need for such vociferous venom. We all know Clinton is no angel, she has a very dodgy character too, so why isn't the media train active in both directions?

Personally, i would prefer them to stick to policies, because by the time either of them gets to the Whitehouse, its policy that counts, not their behaviour.

A bit like the in/out battle, it all comes down to lies, speculation and half truths being the focus and not the genuine issues.

[Withano]

Nobody is trying to bully you. You cant call it bullying just because there are a large amount of people on the opposing side to you. Christ, people are just trying to decode your weird thread, which has caught my attention for all the wrong reasons - its genuinely completely insane. people dont only visit threads they completely agree with, discussions are usually formed by having 2 opposing opinions, you cant cry bully when people dont understand your obscure argument. Im not trying to dumb down what youve said, i genuinely have no idea what your argument is and assumed i was pretty close with my paraphrasing. Im certain its not actually a complex topic though. Its just you dismissing cyrus because of a three second video.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Nobody is trying to bully you. You cant call it bullying just because there are a large amount of people on the opposing side to you. Christ, people are just trying to decode your weird thread, which has caught my attention for all the wrong reasons - its genuinely completely insane. people dont only visit threads they completely agree with, discussions are usually formed by having 2 opposing opinions, you cant cry bully when people dont understand your obscure argument. Im not trying to dumb down what youve said, i genuinely have no idea what your argument is and assumed i was pretty close with my paraphrasing. Im certain its not actually a complex topic though. Its just you dismissing cyrus because of a three second video.

If you have a genuine problem in understanding what I write, then I suggest that YOU have the problem in simple comprehension.

Your posts are beginning to appear like the written equivalent of a 'stuck record' and let me assure you that I don't cry 'bully' because I enjoy whupping bullies asses figuratively AND literally.

I said "it SEEMS like there is an ATTEMPT to bully me" NOT that I am BEING bullied.

'SEEMS like' is NOT the same as 'BEING'. 'ATTEMPT' is NOT the same as 'SUCCEEDING'

It SEEMS (there's that confusing word again) weird how I am a PAID author of several Short Stories and numerous articles for various organisations, and have just completed the first draft of a novel - the sample chapters which have just won me a quite prestigious Literary Agent - but yet I am to self-flagellate because YOU cannot understand what I am writing.

Goodnight.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If you have a genuine problem in understanding what I write, then I suggest that YOU have the problem in simple comprehension.

Your posts are beginning to appear like the written equivalent of a 'stuck record' and let me assure you that I don't cry 'bully' because I enjoy whupping bullies asses figuratively AND literally.

I said "it SEEMS like there is an ATTEMPT to bully me" NOT that I am BEING bullied.

'SEEMS like' is NOT the same as 'BEING'. 'ATTEMPT' is NOT the same as 'SUCCEEDING'

It SEEMS (there's that confusing word again) weird how I am a PAID author of several Short Stories and numerous articles for various organisations, and have just completed the first draft of a novel - the sample chapters which have just won me a quite prestigious Literary Agent - but yet I am to self-flagellate because YOU cannot understand what I am writing.

Goodnight.

A stuck record? Youve spent 3000 words trying to explain one argument and completely got in a huff because next to nobody (not just me by a longshot) could understand what you were tring to argue heres to a new day.
Not sure if a personal insult in my comprehension skills are necessary. But thats what ive come to expect from tibb, seems youre making an attempt to bully me.