[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Maru

The point of a PM explanation is not resolve all user dissension. That will always occur. It's encouraged by our democracy after all. Uprising against the establishment.

I truly believe the PM system is designed to have a ripple effect on rapport... on forums I've been active on and forums I've modded, this worked better because both mods and reasonable users didn't require as many explanations... it means focus on the real hard cases... it also reduced nastygrams between both sides imo because the system tells you pretty much... write a professional alert to the user the decision... if they respond, reply the rule that is significant and why and leave it there. Other than that, take it to the admin. I would not have my mods arguing back and forth with users with personal commentary (much less in threads). It can be very well intentioned and they could very well be in the right, but it just looks biased... they after all are only following the rules.

The nice thing about PMs too from a mod perspective. Most complaints could be reduced down to accusations, which were harder to prove on the user end... so then easier to justify escalation (if even just to ourselves) as needed to infractions and possibly eventually be banned... eventually people give up and change their ways and move on.... make it personal and they will never give up. You'll have a counter forum developed behind your back and lots of drama could ensue off-site... I know this from experience!

On the front end, it will help filter between the reasonables, the unreasonables and the plain undesirables (trolls who you know will get themselves permabanned eventually). It invites a response, and by no means, does a mod have to respond to that response exhaustively, much do they need to respond to the response of the response... most places that did this, they left a note saying they would take their objections into consideration after the initial response... and if needed, reiterating a stated rule so that they understood that some decisions would be more final than others... nothing personal, nothing exhaustive. Because frankly, mods are a volunteer cast and they can't afford the time to provide an exhaustive explanation to how they mod the forum... most is based on personal judgement and a thick skin and you just sometimes hope you've made the right decision that won't cause too many problems with users.

The work in my field is based on communication through the design of information. So for a living, I have to take into consideration the psychological behind the appearance and presentation of information on websites... small things like changing from infractions to a PM system feels more personal to the user and more inviting than merely leaving a time bomb in the explanation box... it depends on the situation though and eventually some users will exhaust their courtesy PM's and we move to an infraction and then eventually a ban situation... but in general, I think the system is good because it builds rapport with the core user... that's the main benefit from an administrative perspective... not to stop all dissension.

Oh yeah I totally see all that, but do we really have the resources for all of that? Tibbs only a small site so I sort of think if something's not necessary, as much as it would be a nice to have, then is it worth putting mod resource into it? I imagine the infraction system is a much easier method of moderating (granted, I'm sure it also leads to mistakes or unfair judgements on occasion too), but I dunno, what you've described sounds like it would take a lot of mod time that isn't really available, and considering the size of the site would it be worth introducing a whole new administrative process?

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Oh yeah I totally see all that, but do we really have the resources for all of that? Tibbs only a small site so I sort of think if something's not necessary, as much as it would be a nice to have, then is it worth putting mod resource into it? I imagine the infraction system is a much easier method of moderating (granted, I'm sure it also leads to mistakes or unfair judgements on occasion too), but I dunno, what you've described sounds like it would take a lot of mod time that isn't really available, and considering the size of the site would it be worth introducing a whole new administrative process?

It depends on the situation, but in some cases, I've had to modify the forum internally to accommodate for lack of staff. I've gone as far as to modify language/add language/behavior of code to code if needed to make things clearer (some systems make it easier than others)... but again, we don't know the situation with TiBB staff and how many are available to do the job and what is technically feasible with the forum itself as they are running on an older version, so plugins may not even be compatible (though vB is pretty common)... my comments are more consultative rather than critical given there's those unknown circumstances. I think that your concerns are very fair.

[Liam-]

Also what Jessica said.

[Jessica.]

It's not their job though, it's something that they do in their free time.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

It's not their job though, it's something that they do in their free time.

And? That doesn't mean they don't have to do it to the best of their ability

[In the Drunk Tank]

In all of 2016 I have had two PMs asking about moderation on here and the most recent one was in March

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In all of 2016 I have had two PMs asking about moderation on here and the most recent one was in March

Is that because you are never here.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Is that because you are never here.

If I'm not posting it doesn't mean I'm not here

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

In all of 2016 I have had two PMs asking about moderation on here and the most recent one was in March

Not from me Matt.

I actually keep forgetting that you are a mod.

I am a grown man and can take my bruises, not only when I have deserved them, but also on quite a few occasions when I have not deserved them, but there is a REAL and recurring problem on this forum with unfairness, favouritism, and unethical behaviour from a Mod.

Bitontheslide - an intelligent, knowledgeable and moderate member - has quit the forum because of it , despite my personal plea to him not to, and other 'Senior' members are genuinely so aggrieved by the above and feel so strongly about it, that they too are on the verge of quitting.

For the most part, those who dismiss this problem, and who attack those complaining about it, are NOT even regular contributors to Serious Debates - the 'arena' where most complaints stem from, and they are also basing their dismissiveness and denials of such complaints, on the fact that that the Mod in question is a 'nice sweet guy' who plays games with them and holds similar political and other views.

No ONE is saying that the Mod in question is NOT a nice guy, or that he is constantly at fault, but there ARE problems which need addressing.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Not from me Matt.

I actually keep forgetting that you are a mod.

I am a grown man and can take my bruises, not only when I have deserved them, but also on quite a few occasions when I have not deserved them, but there is a REAL and recurring problem on this forum with unfairness, favouritism, and unethical behaviour from a Mod.

Bitontheslide - an intelligent, knowledgeable and moderate member - has quit the forum because of it , despite my personal plea to him not to, and other 'Senior' members are genuinely so aggrieved by the above and feel so strongly about it, that they too are on the verge of quitting.

For the most part, those who dismiss this problem, and who attack those complaining about it, are NOT even regular contributors to Serious Debates - the 'arena' where most complaints stem from, and they are also basing their dismissiveness and denials of such complaints, on the fact that that the Mod in question is a 'nice sweet guy' who plays games with them and holds similar political and other views.

No ONE is saying that the Mod in question is NOT a nice guy, or that he is constantly at fault, but there ARE problems which need addressing.

...no one is dismissing and no one is attacking anyone Kirk..and the bit in bold is simply not true at all...and it does actually insult members in saying it, that it factors in at all when we view things on the forum...we often do so as 'observers' in a thread ..(in any section..)...so participating is not really relevant.../in fact observing and non-participation often gives a more balanced perspective rather than involvement...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...no one is dismissing and no one is attacking anyone Kirk..and the bit in bold is simply not true at all...and it does actually insult members in saying it, that it factors in at all when we view things on the forum...we often do so as 'observers' in a thread ..(in any section..)...so participating is not really relevant.../in fact observing and non-participation often gives a more balanced perspective rather than involvement...

I'm sorry Ammi, but the bit in bold is perfectly true in MY opinion though it may not be in yours.

I really think that you need to stand back and take a more objective view of events just lately Ammi, because CLEARLY some people are being DISMISSIVE of our complaints, and still others are being PERSONALLY CRITICAL of us, and their comments amount to attacking us.

I witnessed another thread yesterday, where decent, honourable, and long-serving members were subjected to a barrage of the most unnaceptable immature abusive comments AND mockery by supporters of the Mod in question.

Opinions on here among a huge number of members are driven more by who they are 'friends with' and which 'Celebrity' they are fans of rather than any objective and dispassionate weighing of facts - in my opinion.

Do you think that ANY ONE of us would 'conjure up' these problems which we have experienced just to make waves, when - as mature, intelligent adults - we KNOW that the ensuing tsunami will DROWN US?

I'm sorry, but I really do not hate anyone on here - my life is too full of REAL living for that to be the case, yet I MUST stand up and be counted for what I KNOW is MY truth, and if that truth casts a friend of yours in an unfavourable light, and if you take umbrage because of it, then there is nothing that I can do.

All I ask in REAL life, is that I am treated the same as the next person by those in authority - not better, not worse, but the same - and it is no different upon here.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm sorry Ammi, but the bit in bold is perfectly true in MY opinion though it may not be in yours.

I really think that you need to stand back and take a more objective view of events just lately Ammi, because CLEARLY some people are being DISMISSIVE of our complaints, and still others are being PERSONALLY CRITICAL of us, and their comments amount to attacking us.

I witnessed another thread yesterday, where decent, honourable, and long-serving members were subjected to a barrage of the most unnaceptable immature abusive comments AND mockery by supporters of the Mod in question.

Opinions on here among a huge number of members are driven more by who they are 'friends with' and which 'Celebrity' they are fans of rather than any objective and dispassionate weighing of facts - in my opinion.

Do you think that ANY ONE of us would 'conjure up' these problems which we have experienced just to make waves, when - as mature, intelligent adults - we KNOW that the ensuing tsunami will DROWN US?

I'm sorry, but I really do not hate anyone on here - my life is too full of REAL living for that to be the case, yet I MUST stand up and be counted for what I KNOW is MY truth, and if that truth casts a friend of yours in an unfavourable light, and if you take umbrage because of it, then there is nothing that I can do.

All I ask in REAL life, is that I am treated the same as the next person by those in authority - not better, not worse, but the same - and it is no different upon here.

..I don't know Kirk...(I'm going to bow out of this for the moment because I need to get something to eat...)...but the wording that you're using 'us' seems to suggest a mindset of 'them and us' and I honestly think that might be contributing as well../that mindset...


..I can't always say that I can be completely objective/no one can/and no one is ever not ironic or hypocritical in behaviour at times either ..I see what everyone sees though and with the infractions/bans/warnings etc the ones I'm aware of...whether they be someone I'm close to or not...?...I also see why they were given and most people who receive them also fully understand and accept the reasons why as well...only the occasional things I would say might cause some confusion as to the situation in Cherie making the thread, which Josy has said she'll look into...

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Not from me Matt.

I actually keep forgetting that you are a mod.

I am a grown man and can take my bruises, not only when I have deserved them, but also on quite a few occasions when I have not deserved them, but there is a REAL and recurring problem on this forum with unfairness, favouritism, and unethical behaviour from a Mod.

Bitontheslide - an intelligent, knowledgeable and moderate member - has quit the forum because of it , despite my personal plea to him not to, and other 'Senior' members are genuinely so aggrieved by the above and feel so strongly about it, that they too are on the verge of quitting.

For the most part, those who dismiss this problem, and who attack those complaining about it, are NOT even regular contributors to Serious Debates - the 'arena' where most complaints stem from, and they are also basing their dismissiveness and denials of such complaints, on the fact that that the Mod in question is a 'nice sweet guy' who plays games with them and holds similar political and other views.

No ONE is saying that the Mod in question is NOT a nice guy, or that he is constantly at fault, but there ARE problems which need addressing.

Kirk, as you know, I'm a fairly new user, so don't have the time invested that some do... but I've never been modded or had an infraction. Though I do refrain from potential flamewars... (which I think is the true problem more than language issues)... it needs to be made clearer in language the decisions are not personal, so that they can effectively deal with the larger issues... such as verbal abuse that gets tossed around unencumbered.

I remember a time when we used the tools too much and there was so much complaint. Now it seems as if some establishments are afraid to use the tools, fearful of the outcry. There is no perfect solution, but I think that the mods need to be able to put to sleep matters effectively so that they can actually make headway with some of the larger issues in S&D... such as the constant verbal sniping and personal attacks... and not face dissession everytime for choosing a path...

What would have to change to satisfy you and others? There are people who I have seen that float on your side (and often mine as my views are sometimes in line). LT being a big proponent for this (though not the only name I'd name), posting divisive commentary, openly trolling those they perceive to embody the core arguments of opposition and are making weaker arguments (when they are just another innocent user making courtesy commentary)... who are there clearly there purely to cause controversy, not to discuss... those users float hide behind myself and your comments when convenient... then attack others when the coast is clear... and that might be a big reason why you have potentially received infractions, because of a certain crowd....

Imo, not enough has been done about those users, and there needs to be give and take, both sides to resolve the problem... so Kirk, if they ban some of those users and have to act.... and you coincidentally receive infractions from a mod whose comments are not so eloquent, it may still potentially look very biased... but in fact, could be focused on other underlying problems in the forum... and I agree with you, a can of worms has been opened here because some very poor decision making and personal commentary has been made and cannot be undone... and that drives the discussion behind dissension.

We need an agreement as to what the problems actually are so both sides feel safe to post... personally I avoid problem users and their threads like the plague and they're in my squished users list (ignore). It's possibly why I avoid infractions and why your posts are moderated... when we often have very similar viewpoints.

[Mokka]

It's not about whether it is a paid position or volunteer. I volunteer on many organizations and committees in my city... and I still am accountable for my actions there...and have to address concerns from people there as well...and I do it as professionally as if it was my paid job

And I am personally tired of being told I am on a war path against the mods. I have said seversl times i wouldn't want to mod... because I realize it is a sucky job... but those doing it signed up to do so... so they are accountable for their actions in that position. I am against censorship, dictatorship, and abuse of authority.

[Amy Jade]

Just to give a bit of balance a thread I made got deleted a while back and I asked a mod why and they got back to me and as it happened it waspretty fair.

Also I've asked a few mods why I was infracted and gotten a satisfying reply. We all get passionate sometimes and make posts that could be seen as baiting or just causing drama in general.

[Kizzy]

I sent Josy a PM once about a warning... No reply.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I sent Josy a PM once about a warning... No reply.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Although don't try get me on weekends

[Jessica.]

Ugh, I don't want a notification every time a mod does something, that's so tedious.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Ugh, I don't want a notification every time a mod does something, that's so tedious.

I asked that a general comment be put in the thread, Niamh does it a lot and it's very effective

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I asked that a general comment be put in the thread, Niamh does it a lot and it's very effective

I think this is good for mass deletions that have massively altered the discourse in the thread. Do it after every deletion and the mod team and forum will be a basket cases in a matter of weeks.

Edit: I think sleeping on it is sometimes too if it looks like a questionable endeavor... come back and delete delete delete... sometimes everyone has had their mea culpa... or a chronically insomniac 3am mod will clean it up when it gets particularly nasty. Leaving those threads around can cause issues if there are a lot of thin skins on the board. I'm OK with locked threads in most cases... personally speaking.

Edit2: We actually used to move deleted/edited posts to a hidden forum just in case we needed to bring back a post (with edits) to make clear it was moderated and re-cleared. Something to consider.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Maru

I think this is good for mass deletions that have massively altered the discourse in the thread. Do it after every deletion and the mod team and forum will be a basket cases in a matter of weeks.

Edit: I think sleeping on it is sometimes too if it looks like a questionable endeavor... come back and delete delete delete... sometimes everyone has had their mea culpa... or a chronically insomniac 3am mod will clean it up when it gets particularly nasty. Leaving those threads around can cause issues if there are a lot of thin skins on the board. I'm OK with locked threads in most cases... personally speaking.

Edit2: We actually used to move deleted/edited posts to a hidden forum just in case we needed to bring back a post (with edits) to make clear it was moderated and re-cleared. Something to consider.

we used to have to do this with the old forum. With this one nothing gets 'deleted' it just gets hidden and admin and mods can still read and restore them if necessary

[Vicky.]

However, on other sites I used to receive PMs when posts were removed, edited, when threads were moved etc... some places the edits were made on the post and an explanation towards the end... (probably should poll users before doing this to see if it is appropriate)

You realise, with this you would have a full inbox within an hour of it being implemented?

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

You realise, with this you would have a full inbox within an hour of it being implemented?

Well, I am a very fast typist. Though in all seriousness, again... this has been implemented before and it was in place of infractions at the base level. So maybe only a small handful made it a problem, and again, I would escalate to infractions and bans if that user is stubborn... there should be an unsaid limit of courtesy PM's in my opinion

Edit: Unless you're talking about PM storage limits. Then whoops

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Maru

Well, I am a very fast typist. Though in all seriousness, again... this has been implemented before and it was in place of infractions at the base level. So maybe only a small handful made it a problem, and again, I would escalate to infractions and bans if that user is stubborn... there should be an unsaid limit of courtesy PM's in my opinion

Edit: Unless you're talking about PM storage limits. Then whoops

Ohhh you meant the member whos post had been removed would get a message? I read this as everytime a message was deleted or a thread moved or whatever everyone would get a message

I always try to leave an edit note if I edit posts. And I tend to favour editing over deletions too. But when faced with a thread with 50 posts that are just bollocks arguments and sniping..much easier to delete in one go, which includes any posts quoting the argument. Which tends to then lead to 'why was my post deleted, I only said X' which starts it all up again thus making the deletions a bit pointless, which is why we delete posts of that nature too.

Having said this, a fair few members prefer their posts to be deleted rather than edited. I have had hell on in PM many times for editing peoples posts :S