[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by InOne

Denise started it with the sympathy thing against Michael. That's when she got most onside. She didn't count Nat going, and when Nicola went to the twins it proved an even bigger problem. She used a combination of manipulation and pure spite for the twins to get Nicola back onside, even if it meant destroying her on TV. Nicola still went back to her after the realisation that Denise didn't hold anything back. She still had the guys though as well, who had now seen her wrath and her "vunerable" side, so they will've been confused. Rather than stick up for the alien American's they thought to go with the motherly "one of us" Denise type, who could clearly never be wrong because she was "only having a laugh". Michael was the only man in that house, the rest were little boys. They were all basically sticking to the one who'd make them look best on the outside.

I understand now what you meant. But, I still wouldn't use the word "bully". A bully for me is a different kettle of fish altogether.

But the boys never took anyone's side so I fail to see your reasoning about them "sticking up" for any of them. We're a long way off even touching on bullying.

[RodHull]

Not a bully, just a mess... My only solace tonight was the knowledge that despite winning she will still be a sad depressed mess of a human being devoid of any joy and paralysed by her own insatiable need to be loved.

Cruel maybe, but it made me smile

[Jords]

Originally Posted by Callum

No these comments were there after Day 1 when nobody could have formed an overall opinion on the housemates yet, people automatically hated them because of their nationality. They could have been brilliant housemates but the xenophobes would still hate them because of where they were born. I didn't think it was apparent so much in BB myself until the last couple of days. It's sad.

Maybe so but theyre completely in the minority, no way would they have any impact on the outcomes. Infact they are so uneducated they probably dont have a job that pays them enough to waste money on votes anyway.

I really dont buy it, imo its being used as a bitter excuse to why their favourite (either twins or Michael) didnt win.

[vortex]

I wanted the twins to win it but I dont think Denise was a bully, it's just personalities that crash in a closed enviroment like the BB House.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

I understand now what you meant. But, I still wouldn't use the word "bully". A bully for me is a different kettle of fish altogether.

But the boys never took anyone's side so I fail to see your reasoning about them "sticking up" for any of them. We're a long way off even touching on bullying.

Maybe emotional manipulation would be the right term?

[RodHull]

Originally Posted by Jords

Maybe so but theyre completely in the minority, no way would they have any impact on the outcomes. Infact they are so uneducated they probably dont have a job that pays them enough to waste money on votes anyway.

I really dont buy it, imo its being used as a bitter excuse to why their favourite (either twins or Michael) didnt win.

It wasnt the only reason for sure, but I do think its alot easier for UK public to hate US celebs. It takes very little wrong for people to turn on them and when they turn its usually pretty brutal.

UK celebs are treated with a more even hand and opinions fluctuate more readily. Once a US celeb puts a foot wrong, they could invent a cure for aids and people would still boo them.

[Marsh.]

I would say don't rely too much on the official facebook page, as these are mostly 13 yo only just discovering BB in recent years and spewing venom that they don't even understand. This makes up about 80% of the online world, throwing insults that they don't even know they're talking about.

It's like racists in general, if they feel the need to use nationality or skin colour as a means of ridiculing you then you can feel solace in the fact that they couldn't actually find anything about you as a person to actually comment negatively on within any reason.

It's like when you get musicians getting abuse purely because they are "rivals" to their favourite musician (Gaga fans jump into my head instantly, not all of them). But, again, this makes up a very small but vocal minority.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by InOne

Maybe emotional manipulation would be the right term?

On some level that is correct. Denise's huge problem which obviously stems from her depression and alcoholism is the need for attention and love (maybe that's why she's an actress). She's 53 and struggled with all sorts. At the beginning her main problem with Michael was that he showed no interest in getting to know about her career or family or anything so she took offence and badgered him for attention.

So, a little like Nicola, her major insecurities play a huge part in all these encounters. Doesn't make her a bad person (or a bully) but it shows that the people closest to her aren't doing her any favours by not addressing the situation with her and getting her proper professional help.

I find it a major concern that since she's confessed to being an alcoholic and yet she still drinks. In my view if you're an alcoholic you can't just have 1 or 2 you must abstain completely otherwise you're buggered again, you're back to the denial stage. So, that actually goes back to an earlier thread about are her family ashamed of her? I think the more appropriate comment is are her family ashamed of themselves? Maybe this gets them to see the light.

[RodHull]

On a serious note this is a woman who has attempted suicide as a result of alcoholism and yet she is now voted as winner by the public for behaving like a sad drunk.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by RodHull

It wasnt the only reason for sure, but I do think its alot easier for UK public to hate US celebs. It takes very little wrong for people to turn on them and when they turn its usually pretty brutal.

UK celebs are treated with a more even hand and opinions fluctuate more readily. Once a US celeb puts a foot wrong, they could invent a cure for aids and people would still boo them.

BB in general is panto. So, it's not to be taken seriously when it comes to public opinion. It changes with the wind. And maybe it's easier to "get to know" or forgive celebs you are already familiar with in some way yet not so much some random actor from a million years ago they've never heard of who feels like a complete stranger to them.

For example, I think everyone felt they already knew Katona when she entered last year but someone like Michael Madsen is a blank canvass so people take things at face value with him and judge. Whereas they'll use past experience of Katona as well as what she does in the house to judge her more "fairly".

But, I think the main reason is that Americans do play the game completely differently. The twins and Tara came in brilliantly with their "game heads" ready to fight dirty to win. Which is really the point of Big Brother USA but ours is more a popularity contest than a game so that's where the lines blur and they'll never win because they don't remember they've also got to win favour with the viewing public who holds the final decision.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

On some level that is correct. Denise's huge problem which obviously stems from her depression and alcoholism is the need for attention and love (maybe that's why she's an actress). She's 53 and struggled with all sorts. At the beginning her main problem with Michael was that he showed no interest in getting to know about her career or family or anything so she took offence and badgered him for attention.

So, a little like Nicola, her major insecurities play a huge part in all these encounters. Doesn't make her a bad person (or a bully) but it shows that the people closest to her aren't doing her any favours by not addressing the situation with her and getting her proper professional help.

I find it a major concern that since she's confessed to being an alcoholic and yet she still drinks. In my view if you're an alcoholic you can't just have 1 or 2 you must abstain completely otherwise you're buggered again, you're back to the denial stage. So, that actually goes back to an earlier thread about are her family ashamed of her? I think the more appropriate comment is are her family ashamed of themselves? Maybe this gets them to see the light.

I doubt her family or anyone else will see anything wrong now she has won BB. It's almost like just not letting her take any resposibility for anything she's done. If the public can justify and rationalize everything she's done, then she herself will never admit a problem. But what can you do eh, no doubt we'll see her self destruction in the papers and be made to feel sorry for her all over again.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by InOne

I doubt her family or anyone else will see anything wrong now she has won BB. It's almost like just not letting her take any resposibility for anything she's done. If the public can justify and rationalize everything she's done, then she herself will never admit a problem. But what can you do eh, no doubt we'll see her self destruction in the papers and be made to feel sorry for her all over again.

Well, personally, I justified her "pants pull" incident because I felt the backlash she got for it was unnecessary but that's a whole other discussion.

She does need to learn about forgetting about other people's thoughts and wanting everyone to love her, something she's admitted she needs to work on but, yeah, her winning probably won't help that and probably feed her insatiable hunger for attention and adoration. Vicious circle and all that.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

On some level that is correct. Denise's huge problem which obviously stems from her depression and alcoholism is the need for attention and love (maybe that's why she's an actress). She's 53 and struggled with all sorts. At the beginning her main problem with Michael was that he showed no interest in getting to know about her career or family or anything so she took offence and badgered him for attention.

So, a little like Nicola, her major insecurities play a huge part in all these encounters. Doesn't make her a bad person (or a bully) but it shows that the people closest to her aren't doing her any favours by not addressing the situation with her and getting her proper professional help.

I find it a major concern that since she's confessed to being an alcoholic and yet she still drinks. In my view if you're an alcoholic you can't just have 1 or 2 you must abstain completely otherwise you're buggered again, you're back to the denial stage. So, that actually goes back to an earlier thread about are her family ashamed of her? I think the more appropriate comment is are her family ashamed of themselves? Maybe this gets them to see the light.

I actually agree with alot of what you have posted here! However, most easily forget what you have pointed out... she suffers from depression and alcoholism. Surely, most should recognise that these are REAL issues which affect many, and doesnt make her a nasty
person or a bully.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Well, personally, I justified her "pants pull" incident because I felt the backlash she got for it was unnecessary but that's a whole other discussion.

She does need to learn about forgetting about other people's thoughts and wanting everyone to love her, something she's admitted she needs to work on but, yeah, her winning probably won't help that and probably feed her insatiable hunger for attention and adoration. Vicious circle and all that.

I totally agree..the pants pull was inappropriate in the first place but the reaction by all far superseded that...and I do think Denise should have certain harsh realities pointed out to her, for her own good...she's far too 'mature' not to realise that she needs to take others into consideration more...if she thinks it's funny..that's all that matters to her...however, I could use many words to describe Denise, none of them complimentary, but bully is not one of them and using the term so inappropriately only undermines it

[Locke.]

The bullying and intimidation that this woman oosed was disgusting. Seriously. Anyone that wanted her to win need a nice visit to the mental institution.

[Tregard]

Don't forget Josie!