[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Well we may aswell all leave work,get fat and live off the state,seriously NO one is saying those that don't need benefits should not get them,but there ARE certain sections of society that ARE lazy,do NOT want to work and benefits is their way of life,I give up on this thread ,I really do.

Don't give up Kaz - that's the mistake I nearly made.

Every time someone mentions on here, the reality that SOME fraudently claim benefits who could work but don't want to, or SOME fraudently claim benefits who are working 'on the side', or that SOME immigrants are terrorist sympathisers, or that SOME Muslims are fundamentalist terrorists, the thread is immediately tattoed by Left Wing rebuttal posts which IGNORE what has actually been said in the original post, and false premises are then worked from which suggest that what has been said in the original post is that ALL claimants are fraudulent, or ALL immigrants are terrorist sympathisers, or that ALL Muslims are terrorists.

This hysterical defensiveness is ridiculous.

I personally KNOW at least 8 disgustingly obese women - all in their late 20's, and all who have from 2 to 5 children (most to different non-present, 'baby-daddies') and all who claim benefits far in excess of the average weekly working wage, and all who are seldom seen without guzzling down Big Mac meals, Fish and Chips or huge '99 ice cream cones/chocolate bars.

I personally know dozens of people who claim benefits who are fit and well but who do not work and don't want to work. Some of these are over 50 years old and HAVE NEVER HAD ONE JOB IN THEIR LIVES. Another is on Mobility for life yet plays football for a local team and trains 3 times a week at Bannatyne's Gym.

Yet another was awarded mobility for life because his bad back debilitated him, then the government paid thousands of pounds for him to enroll on a HGV course and he is now employed as a long distance lorry driver but still receives his mobility allowance????

One woman - 38 years old - has 12 children -- yes 12 children (to many different 'baby-daddies') -- and receives over £900 per week, not including Housing Benefits. She is at least a size 24 and regularly traipses around town with some of her friends and a couple of pushchairs, with other of her kids walking along sides, and she is always loaded up with carrier bags of new clothes and always munching on burgers or KFc's. And no, she has never worked from having her first baby at 15 years old.

I could go on and on, but suffice to say that these twats DO exist, and although they are in a minority, it is still a very sizeable minority which is costing the tax-payer multi-millions of pounds per year.

I will also repeat - that the more of these lazy fecking leeches there are that are barred from benefits, then the more money there is in the system to PROPERLY alleviate the suffering of GENUINE claimants.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON THE SYSTEM JUST ON THOSE WHO MILK IT AND ABUSE IT.

Back to obese people;

Obesity through genuine physiological or medical reasons aside, it is naive to PRESUME that the rest of obese people need educating on healthy eating habits, because most of them know that gorging on takeaways 6 nights a week, drinking copious amounts of alcohol and fizzy drinks, and stuffing burgers, multiple bags of crisps, and chocolates and ice creams down their gullets, and not taking any exercise at all by WORKING OUT or even just WORKING, will result in becoming a BEACHED WHALE with heath problems galore.

Here's Dr Kirk's way to lose weight and get healthier:

1) FECKING EAT LESS.
2) FECKING START ACTUALLY COOKING.
2) FECKING GET A JOB.
3) FECKING THROW AWAY THE TV.
4) FECKING THROW AWAY THE COUCH.

Simple 'innit.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

One woman - 38 years old - has 12 children -- yes 12 children (to many different 'baby-daddies') -- and receives over £900 per week, not including Housing Benefits. She is at least a size 24 and regularly traipses around town with some of her friends and a couple of pushchairs, with other of her kids walking along sides, and she is always loaded up with carrier bags of new clothes and always munching on burgers or KFc's. And no, she has never worked from having her first baby at 15 years old.


Simple 'innit.

Not getting into the rest of your post, but this part in particular is actually impossible. If you do not know why, then you don't know what you are talking about at all

She may brag (god knows why mind) about receiving that much, but she wont actually...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Not getting into the rest of your post, but this part in particular is actually impossible. If you do not know why, then you don't know what you are talking about at all

Well please enlighten me just why it's impossible Vicky please. I do not lie. I have direct knowledge about this actual woman but cannot breach Data Protection law.

And I most certainly DO KNOW what I am talking about - from direct, personal experience and involvement in some cases.

I am reasonably intelligent, so if I wanted to merely post Right Wing propaganda by fabricating examples I would not have used 12 children and £900 per week - I related such because it is the truth.

I await your response.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Well please enlighten me just why it's impossible Vicky please. I do not lie. I have direct knowledge about this actual woman but cannot breach Data Protection law.

And I most certainly DO KNOW what I am talking about - from direct, personal experience and involvement in some cases.

I am reasonably intelligent, so if I wanted to merely post Right Wing propaganda by fabricating examples I would not have used 12 children and £900 per week - I related such because it is the truth.

I await your response.

Because there is a cap of £500 per week that anyone can claim in benefits, including housing benefit...

[GypsyGoth]

They should build big hamster wheels for the obese people.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

They should build big hamster wheels for the obese people.

and generate electricity,we could pay them in McDonalds

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

and generate electricity,we could pay them in McDonalds

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

hello GG not seen you post in a while,nice to have you back.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

hello GG not seen you post in a while,nice to have you back.

Thanks

[Vicky.]

Also the problem with these with loads of kids receiving high amount of benefits is..I don't see what can be done about it. I know so many are for a cap on the amount of children you can claim for, and I do see that view, but you are punishing the kids for the parents stupidity by doing that. Besides forcibly sterilizing people on benefits after 2 kids..I dont see a solution that doesn't punish the children, who are innocents in all of this.

Also if we went down the draconian forced sterilization path, we would still have the problem of people who had ****loads of kids when working and then lost their jobs :S

[DemolitionRed]

I don't hang around in the same circles you do Kirk and so apart from my sister who has a brain tumour and is enormously over weight through the medication, I don't know any morbidly obese unemployed people. I do though, know quite a few large people who have bank accounts in Geneva who will happily sit round a dinner table taking triple portions whilst advising the rest of us how to evade tax through unscrupulous measures.

Perhaps, instead of weekly documentaries on benefit scroungers we could have, just for a change, a documentary or two on those responsible for the missing billions in tax contributions, because although we all know that benefit scrounging is wrong, its a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the tax that major corporations and individuals are avoiding paying on their profits.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I don't hang around in the same circles you do Kirk and so apart from my sister who has a brain tumour and is enormously over weight through the medication, I don't know any morbidly obese unemployed people. I do though, know quite a few large people who have bank accounts in Geneva who will happily sit round a dinner table taking triple portions whilst advising the rest of us how to evade tax through unscrupulous measures.

Perhaps, instead of weekly documentaries on benefit scroungers we could have, just for a change, a documentary or two on those responsible for the missing billions in tax contributions, because although we all know that benefit scrounging is wrong, its a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the tax that major corporations and individuals are avoiding paying on their profits.

I love your posts Dem, but these two issues - though both very real - are very different. I am not anti-working class but I believe that it is categorically wrong to tolerate or mitigate 'working class' abuse of the Benefits System just because the 'middle to upper class' tax avoiders and evaders are allowed to 'manipulate' the law under the present system.

I think we all know how corrupt and biased against the 'working classes' certain institutions in this country are, and have been for centuries - including the core of our Judicial and Revenue systems - but it needs concerted effort by the people here to highlight such corruption and protest about it -- Poll Tax style -- until the loop holes are closed and the relevant laws and policies are rendered more equitable through revision.

The irony here is that the issue of Benefit Fraud as outlined, is NOT 'Working Class' crime, but 'NON WORKING CLASS crime perpetuated against the very section of the 'working classes' who most desperately need the money being defrauded.

Oh, and I don't hang around in these circles Dem, but I am not only involved through my work with such 'circles', but also have direct experience and acquired knowledge of the same because I have been a professional landlord for years, and have had thousands of tenants who were/are claimants for the lower value stock in my portfolio.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I think we all know how corrupt and biased against the 'working classes' certain institutions in this country are, and have been for centuries - including the core of our Judicial and Revenue systems - but it needs concerted effort by the people here to highlight such corruption and protest about it -- Poll Tax style -- until the loop holes are closed and the relevant laws and policies are rendered more equitable through revision.

I am sick to death of walking past a newspaper stand and some headline jumping out at me about benefit scroungers. I'm fed up prime time television being taken up with documentaries about how the Polish, Rumanian and fat people are ****ing this country over. This is all about creating a division within a class system. Its incitement to hatred and discontent and I believe its a kin to propaganda because its indoctrinating how we think.

Benefit fraud is a tiny problem in this country. Of course it goes on but its nothing like as big as our media portray it to be. The simple solution is, if you think someone is defrauding the system you report them to the appropriate authorities. If you are wrong, nothing will happen. If you're right the fraud is stopped.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I am sick to death of walking past a newspaper stand and some headline jumping out at me about benefit scroungers. I'm fed up prime time television being taken up with documentaries about how the Polish, Rumanian and fat people are ****ing this country over. This is all about creating a division within a class system. Its incitement to hatred and discontent and I believe its a kin to propaganda because its indoctrinating how we think.

Benefit fraud is a tiny problem in this country. Of course it goes on but its nothing like as big as our media portray it to be. The simple solution is, if you think someone is defrauding the system you report them to the appropriate authorities. If you are wrong, nothing will happen. If you're right the fraud is stopped.

Brilliant post and the post of the thread for me.
It really astounds me that people believe the media rubbish and the 'so called need' from this particular govt; to do something about it.

As you rightly point out and offical statistics on many debate programmes bear your argument out too as to benefit fraud being a 'tiny' problem.
It is disgraceful that people on benefits are generalsed as being demonised in the media, fuelled by govt; statement after statement that seems to call for a need to for 'benefit scrounging' to be stopped.

I admit,I believed a few years ago that it likely was much larger than it is, however, I got into a law firm and I ended up seeing the problems people really in need and also even terminally ill, were having with the new govt; clampdowns and re-assessments of benefits.
As I got to work with others on the issues people had, as many turn to law firms now due to the CAB being swamped with problems and other organisations also unable to cope.
I was stunned at the times an appeal against a benefit cut or total loss, ended up at tribunals or courts,which were in the main amost all overturned 'eventually' in the claimants favour.

The vulnerable and those doing things right suffer heavily when attacks like this are made on them, then they have the added insult of the stigma of being on benefits and people branding them all cheats and scroungers.
Even govt; ministers.

I agree in part with how you ended your post as to if you think someone is getting benefits wrongly report them,I agree it would then be looked into obviously.
However should someone accuse someone wrongly I would like to see the book thrown at them, after some of the horror stories I have seen happen to people in dire need who then often have a long road of appeals and trauma before getting all re-instated.

Absolutely a brilliant post from you on this topic,I have to say,one that leaves me dismayed so many can be swayed by govt; propaganda and the medias gross misrepresentation of the facts.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The vulnerable and those doing things right suffer heavily when attacks like this are made on them, then they have the added insult of the stigma of being on benefits and people branding them all cheats and scroungers.
Even govt; ministers.

I agree in part with how you ended your post as to if you think someone is getting benefits wrongly report them,I agree it would then be looked into obviously.
However should someone accuse someone wrongly I would like to see the book thrown at them, after some of the horror stories I have seen happen to people in dire need who then often have a long road of appeals and trauma before getting all re-instated.

Absolutely a brilliant post from you on this topic,I have to say,one that leaves me dismayed so many can be swayed by govt; propaganda and the medias gross misrepresentation of the facts.

I am not swayed by any government propaganda Joey - no more than I am about to capitulate and change the truth of what I know from personal direct experience just because my view is unpopular.

If the government officials and medical staff wrongly asses genuine claimants as fraudulent or able to work, then those injustices are later officially overturned and benefits rightfully restored - then that is very welcome. But all this means is that genuine people are wrongfully being targeted and having their benefits wrongly taken away by an inefficient government screening process. It has no bearing whatsoever on the very real examples of benefit fraudsters who are cheating the system - irrespective of numbers.

If anything it further scandalises government policy, because their initiative should be screening out these fraudsters not wrongly victimising genuine claimants.

I'm afraid that merely reporting benefit fraudsters does not always result in the cheats being punished. If only it was that simple.

I had the tenants of a detached house in Burnley, Lancashire 'do a moonlight' and they left the property in a trashed condition. To cut a long complicated story short, the property was left empty for several months awaiting the catalogue of works needed to restore it. When I went to the property to start work, the next door neighbour told me that the ex-tenant was regularly coming back to the property and entering it by key and collecting his mail despite the fact I had changed all the locks.

When I left the property after working on it, I screwed up and secured the all the external doors from inside. The next day when I entered, there were several letters addressed to the ex-tenant on the hall floor which had been posted through the letterbox. One - clearly - was a Housing Benefit giro cheque, yet these toe-rags were both self-employed and ran 2 businesses in Burnley, and were supposed to have been funding the rent from their own pocket.

I rang the Housing Benefits and told them what had happened and pointed out that they may have been fraudulently claiming from day one without my knowledge. After some time, the HB employee I was talking to said that they had - over £6,000 in total - and that she was putting me through to someone else. She did put me through and the person I was then talking to said; "Just tear it up love if you will and bin it". I had quite an argument with her but got nowhere as she kept maintaining that; "there wasn't anything they could do", even when I said that surely it was obtaining money by deception - especially the 3 months which he had continued to claim for when he wasn't even living in my property.

Like all customer services via phone, the degree of response and service you actually obtain depends on who you end up talking to - some just can't be bothered.

Anyway, I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with my view - that is their prerogative on a forum - but I have a problem understanding just why they should disagree when all I am attacking are those who are fleecing the system.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I don't hang around in the same circles you do Kirk and so apart from my sister who has a brain tumour and is enormously over weight through the medication, I don't know any morbidly obese unemployed people. I do though, know quite a few large people who have bank accounts in Geneva who will happily sit round a dinner table taking triple portions whilst advising the rest of us how to evade tax through unscrupulous measures.

Perhaps, instead of weekly documentaries on benefit scroungers we could have, just for a change, a documentary or two on those responsible for the missing billions in tax contributions, because although we all know that benefit scrounging is wrong, its a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the tax that major corporations and individuals are avoiding paying on their profits.

Exactly

[Vicky.]

I wonder how one goes about finding out the income rates of all the people they know aswell. I am curious about the income of some people I know, let me in on your secrets kirk please

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I wonder how one goes about finding out the income rates of all the people they know aswell. I am curious about the income of some people I know, let me in on your secrets kirk please

I was wondering that too. Perhaps its an accumulation of resentful Chinese whispers!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I was wondering that too. Perhaps its an accumulation of resentful Chinese whispers!

Possibly...I mean, whats not to be jealous of. 12 kids to bring up..I bet thats a barrel of laughs, I bet she spends all day in the pub too. And has a 70 inch plasma, and goes on 5 holidays a year..etc etc.

If this case is actually true, I think its to be pitied not envied tbh. For it to be true there has to be some element of disability involved (either the mother or the kids..I know esa was mentioned but unless she receives the support component for herself...which is very hard to do without a serious disability then that would not exempt her from the cap.) And I would never resent someone being supported as they/their kids have a disability :S


On the subject of it being more common than people think also...the daily mail couldnt even make it seem common to have so many kids. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...1m-A-YEAR.html

Nearly 100,000 people on benefits have four or more children, with more than 900 claimants having at least eight.

900 people have at least 8 (though this doesn't say WHICH benefits they claim, could be child benefit for some)...will try and find the figure for 12.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Possibly...I mean, whats not to be jealous of. 12 kids to bring up..I bet thats a barrel of laughs, I bet she spends all day in the pub too. And has a 70 inch plasma, and goes on 5 holidays a year..etc etc.

If this case is actually true, I think its to be pitied not envied tbh. For it to be true there has to be some element of disability involved (either the mother or the kids..I know esa was mentioned but unless she receives the support component for herself...which is very hard to do without a serious disability then that would not exempt her from the cap.) And I would never resent someone being supported as they/their kids have a disability :S


On the subject of it being more common than people think also...the daily mail couldnt even make it seem common to have so many kids. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...1m-A-YEAR.html


900 people have at least 8 (though this doesn't say WHICH benefits they claim, could be child benefit for some)...will try and find the figure for 12.

Not only that, but just look at the title of the article. Emphasising "£11 million" like it means something, knowing that their thick readers will see those figures and think "OMG dats a lot of money omg". In terms of the budget, £11 million is nothing. It's a grain of sand. A completely insignificant amount of money.

The UK's military expenditure is 37.5 billion pounds.

That's £37500 million. And by here's this rag making the utterly ludicrous claim that "taxpayers" should be worried about the £11 million going to a tiny minority of families with a large number of children.

[Vicky.]

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...fits-cap/11739

Ah. 10 families in the uk claim benefits and have 12 kids. Yes, a massively widespread problem

I feel I need to make it clear here that I am not supporting popping out kid after kid and expecting the state to support you/them. However, again, I don't see a realistic solution to it. And I don't think so much emphasis needs to be put on it when the reality is the amount of people doing this IS very small, no matter what some would try to make you believe.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...fits-cap/11739

Ah. 10 families in the uk claim benefits and have 12 kids. Yes, a massively widespread problem

I feel I need to make it clear here that I am not supporting popping out kid after kid and expecting the state to support you/them. However, again, I don't see a realistic solution to it. And I don't think so much emphasis needs to be put on it when the reality is the amount of people doing this IS very small, no matter what some would try to make you believe.

Read my post again and you will see clearly that I am not referring to anyone with large families claiming - and I never said it was a 'massively widespread problem'. I was referring specifically to certain fraudulent claimants who I know from direct personally experience are cheating the Benefits System.

I am also convinced that - although admittedly in a minority - the problem of Benefit Cheats is not as 'tiny' as people think.

In any event, I do not understand the hostility to a post which is clearly not attacking the Benefits System or genuine claimants but only those who are claiming when they should not be.

It does not matter one iota either in my book whether the total claimed by benefit cheats is £3 million, £11 million or £100 million P.A - it is still desperately needed money that is being diverted from those genuine claimants who need such benefits.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I was wondering that too. Perhaps its an accumulation of resentful Chinese whispers!

I hope that you're not implying that I personally, am resentful of this woman?
She has nothing that I want or envy.

I don't understand how a truthful post attacking fraudulent claimants because they are abusing a system put into place to assist poor people in genuine need and therefore diverting much needed funds away from them, is always perceived as both an attack on the system itself and those in genuine need of its help?

I am not defending my stance, because I have already made clear that I am not attacking the genuine claimants or the Benefits System just those very real people in every town and city who abuse it.

I know what I know, and it doesn't matter how many disagree.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I wonder how one goes about finding out the income rates of all the people they know aswell. I am curious about the income of some people I know, let me in on your secrets kirk please

I have already explained that I cannot due to Data Protection law.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have already explained that I cannot due to Data Protection law.

LOL. Ok