[Kizzy]

It already has a definition, some just need to comprehend it.

[Ninastar]

'The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.'

That is the definition of racism. There's no mention of a specific colours. Anyone can be racist. No matter what colour they are. To suggest otherwise is naive and ridiculous. Some cases of racism may be worse than others, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taken as seriously.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It already has a definition, some just need to comprehend it.

it needs to be reclarified and redefined...it seems that `the original meaning was to defend and free certain people from discrimination, there seems to be little covering the alleged oppressed groups from discriminating themselves and little to cover what constitutes reasonable or proportional action in retaliation against said oppression. the same with sexism it only seems to work one way, which is wrong and unfair

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Not really, there's a whole movement that suggests this, it's not unheard of.


'Mr Jasper, an equal rights campaigner and activist, said that while black Britons may hold prejudiced views, they should not be described as racist.'

'Mr Jasper, who is now the chairman of the campaign group Black Activists Rising Against Cuts, took to Twitter yesterday to complain about the number of black youths being jailed.
Using the hashtag “sackboris2012”, Mr Jasper asked: “Which mayor has seen the number of black youth going to jail in London increase by 100 per cent during his term?”
His comment prompted a bitter war of words on Twitter between him and Ahzaz Chowdhury, a former adviser to the Conservatives in Tower Hamlets, east London. Mr Jasper went on to say: “Institutional racism in the criminal justice means black citizens face discrimination.”

He accused Mr Chowdhury of being “an apologist for the racism of the Tory party”.
He said: “It’s you and the Tory party whose policies have seen levels of resurgent racism not seen since the war. Black people can’t be racist”.
Mr Chowdhury asked: “So you yourself could never be a racist?”
Mr Jasper answered: “Why is it African activists like me seem to attract public political criticism from Asian men? Don’t see Africans attacking Asian activists? You’re confused about the political reality and power dynamics of racism.'

“No black person in the UK can be racist. Racism is prejudice plus power. Black people can be prejudiced but not racist.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...tone-aide.html

I'm in two minds about this, I don't think he's wrong about the whole prejudice+power thing but I don't think it's a blanket statement either. What if a black person against another minority and vice versa? I wouldn't consider that prejudice but racism.

I think it's quite ridiculous when white people complain about being victims of racism, we have never really experienced it on a level that our race has inflicted on others and white privilege will ensure that we never will.

[Ninastar]

If you don't think white people can experience racism, then move to some parts of America. I have a friend who's had to move over there because her husband works there and she says she's never felt so unwelcome and hated in her life.

I went through it when I was a kid... If you haven't lived there, you just cannot say.

Yes, I know it sounds ridiculous that a white person can face racism, but when you're made to feel hated/unwelcome/left out/etc etc based on your skin colour, then it's racism either way. Racism has no colour.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Chaos

If you don't think white people can experience racism, then move to some parts of America. I have a friend who's had to move over there because her husband works there and she says she's never felt so unwelcome and hated in her life.

I went through it when I was a kid... If you haven't lived there, you just cannot say.

Yes, I know it sounds ridiculous that a white person can face racism, but when you're made to feel hated/unwelcome/left out/etc etc based on your skin colour, then it's racism either way. Racism has no colour.

That is prejudice not racism.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That is prejudice not racism.

In your opinion, that is. But by definition, it is racism.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Chaos

If you don't think white people can experience racism, then move to some parts of America. I have a friend who's had to move over there because her husband works there and she says she's never felt so unwelcome and hated in her life.

I went through it when I was a kid... If you haven't lived there, you just cannot say.

Yes, I know it sounds ridiculous that a white person can face racism, but when you're made to feel hated/unwelcome/left out/etc etc based on your skin colour, then it's racism either way. Racism has no colour.

The truth of the matter is your friend can walk almost anywhere in America and not be at risk of racial profiling and the like, while a black person will be viewed as suspicious if they dare to wear a hoodie. We don't have to worry about getting on a bus or a plane and being treated like a potential terrorist. I think that, sometimes, we do get tastes of what suffering racism can be like but we cannot compare what we might suffer to what the actual minorities suffer because, at the end of the day, white people are the majority in western societies.

When you look at the history and look at things now, I can't really blame some members of the black community being embittered by it all. As a white person it's infuriating to witness racism but I can't imagine the feeling of actually experiencing it.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The truth of the matter is your friend can walk almost anywhere in America and not be at risk of racial profiling and the like, while a black person will be viewed as suspicious if they dare to wear a hoodie. We don't have to worry about getting on a bus or a plane and being treated like a potential terrorist. I think that, sometimes, we do get tastes of what suffering racism can be like but we cannot compare what we might suffer to what the actual minorities suffer.

When you look at the history and look at things now, I can't really blame some members of the black community being embittered by it all. As a white person it's infuriating to witness racism but I can't imagine the feeling of actually experiencing it.

Yeah, maybe white people can't suffer hate as a whole (although, there is still a lot of hate for them out there. just look at social media), but they can still have racist things said to them and be hated on for their skin colour... which is all I'm saying. You can say racist things no matter what colour you are.

[Lostie!]

Originally Posted by Chaos

'The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.'

That is the definition of racism. There's no mention of a specific colours. Anyone can be racist. No matter what colour they are. To suggest otherwise is naive and ridiculous. Some cases of racism may be worse than others, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taken as seriously.

Spot on.

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think it's quite ridiculous when white people complain about being victims of racism, we have never really experienced it on a level that our race has inflicted on others and white privilege will ensure that we never will.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Nobody is undermining the awful treatment of black people throughout history, but racism is racism regardless and I don't believe any instance should be deemed as less of an issue simply because the scope might not be as large.

What if a white person is the victim of a racially-motivated attack by a black person? Is this something to take lightly because the white victim will apparently never suffer the same level of prejudice as his attacker?

Racism is reprehensible in all of it's forms, I don't think it's ever ridiculous for someone (whatever their skin colour) to complain about racism when they have indeed suffered it.

I'm mixed race (English / Pakistani) and I had some racist taunts in my childhood. It hurt, the fact that I haven't been in the same position as black people throughout the worst days of slavery and segregation didn't lessen the blow.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Lostie!

Spot on.



I don't think that's entirely fair. Nobody is undermining the awful treatment of black people throughout history, but racism is racism regardless and I don't believe any instance should be deemed as less of an issue simply because the scope might not be as large.

What if a white person is the victim of a racially-motivated attack by a black person? Is this something to take lightly because the white victim will apparently never suffer the same level of prejudice as his attacker?

Racism is reprehensible in all of it's forms, I don't think it's ever ridiculous for someone (whatever their skin colour) to complain about racism when they have indeed suffered it.

I'm mixed race (English / Pakistani) and I had some racist taunts in my childhood. It hurt, the fact that I haven't been in the same position as black people throughout the worst days of slavery and segregation didn't lessen the blow.

Beautifully put and I'm glad someone who is mixed race agrees with this. I'm not that great with words, but this is something I'm passionate about, having lived in so many places over the world.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm in two minds about this, I don't think he's wrong about the whole prejudice+power thing but I don't think it's a blanket statement either. What if a black person against another minority and vice versa? I wouldn't consider that prejudice but racism.

I think it's quite ridiculous when white people complain about being victims of racism, we have never really experienced it on a level that our race has inflicted on others and white privilege will ensure that we never will.

..yeah, me as well and I always listen to things that CeeCee says and research them because I do understand what she's saying...there are many articles and obviously they're conflicting, here's just one of them, but there are lots of them on 'can black people be racist toward white people'...

http://sistahvegan.com/2013/06/01/ca...-white-people/


..I think it's as the truth said/the definition of the word because prejudice and bigoted, yes...but racism..?...

[Livia]

Black people can be racist against Asians. Black people can be racist again white people... to say they're incapable of it is R I D I C U L O U S ! Jews are a minority who've been discriminated against for centuries, we've been murdered, gassed, oppressed, expelled from countries, beaten, businesses and property taken... even now Jews are regularly shot while worshiping in synagogues right across the world. Does this mean Jews can't be racist? NO! OF COURSE NOT! We can be as racist as anyone else.

IThinkILoveYouToo tells me that Jews don't understand black people's plight because we "own the banks and Hollywood". That comment would suggest to me that black people can at least discriminate even if the comment was said in ignorance. The racism in her generalising comments about white people has yet to be confirmed by the Mods because I've not noticed any having been removed.

[T*]

Originally Posted by Ithinkiloveyoutoo

Black people can't be racist.

[Northern Monkey]

Anyone can be racist!I've mentioned before that one of my schools was in an asian area and they would drive past spitting at me and shouting '*****ing white bastard',If that's not racism then what is?

[user104658]

One suspects that what is being discussed when people say "minorities can't be racist" is institutional racism and, yes, it is arguably true that only white people can engage in institutional racism in Europe / the US (though it is worth pointing out that it does happen with other ethnicities, and against white people too, in other countries such as S. Korea and Japan).

However, institutional racism shouldn't be confused with plain old common racism. Anyone, of any nationality, colour or creed can be a big fat ol' racist.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

One suspects that what is being discussed when people say "minorities can't be racist" is institutional racism and, yes, it is arguably true that only white people can engage in institutional racism in Europe / the US (though it is worth pointing out that it does happen with other ethnicities, and against white people too, in other countries such as S. Korea and Japan).

However, institutional racism shouldn't be confused with plain old common racism. Anyone, of any nationality, colour or creed can be a big fat ol' racist.

I agree with you again TS. That's twice now...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think it's quite ridiculous when white people complain about being victims of racism, we have never really experienced it on a level that our race has inflicted on others and white privilege will ensure that we never will.

Dubious about this. That's sort of like saying it's ridiculous for someone to claim to be a victim of assault because they were only punched once and have no idea what it's like to be beaten to a pulp and then raped. It's lesser, but it's still assault.

Or to draw a more direct comparison - it's like saying it's ridiculous for women in the modern western world to complain about being the victims of sexism, because they can vote, haven't had their genitals mutilated, and aren't forced into marriage. If a woman is turned down for a job because of her gender, does that not pale into insignificance when compared to the plight of some other women around the world? Of course it does. It's still sexist, though.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That is prejudice not racism.

Prejudice on the grounds of race, is racism . By definition.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Dubious about this. That's sort of like saying it's ridiculous for someone to claim to be a victim of assault because they were only punched once and have no idea what it's like to be beaten to a pulp and then raped. It's lesser, but it's still assault.

Or to draw a more direct comparison - it's like saying it's ridiculous for women in the modern western world to complain about being the victims of sexism, because they can vote, haven't had their genitals mutilated, and aren't forced into marriage. If a woman is turned down for a job because of her gender, does that not pale into insignificance when compared to the plight of some other women around the world? Of course it does. It's still sexist, though.


Prejudice on the grounds of race, is racism . By definition.

Exactly.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Livia

I agree with you again TS. That's twice now...

yep, same here... what is going on!??

[Tom4784]

Yeah, I was probably talking more about institutional racism then general racism tbh.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Or to draw a more direct comparison - it's like saying it's ridiculous for women in the modern western world to complain about being the victims of sexism, because they can vote, haven't had their genitals mutilated, and aren't forced into marriage. If a woman is turned down for a job because of her gender, does that not pale into insignificance when compared to the plight of some other women around the world? Of course it does. It's still sexist, though.

I get what you're trying to say but this comparison doesn't really work at all.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Prejudice on the grounds of race, is racism . By definition.

That would be a literal definition, however the prejudice + power definition is the standard.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That would be a literal definition, however the prejudice + power definition is the standard.

It's the standard definition of institutional racism, there's a distinct difference, and it's one that shouldn't be ignored because there is no replacement for the word on its own. Prejudice is a more generalised word that simply doesn't work as a substitute on its own.

You could call it "Negative prejudice on the grounds of race" but... Well... that's just the definition of racism?

Also, pointing out that there is a difference between general racism and institutional racism doesn't somehow dilute the reality of the seriousness of institutional racism... Which seems to be some people's concern.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's the standard definition of institutional racism, there's a distinct difference, and it's one that shouldn't be ignored because there is no replacement for the word on its own. Prejudice is a more generalised word that simply doesn't work as a substitute on its own.

You could call it "Negative prejudice on the grounds of race" but... Well... that's just the definition of racism?

Also, pointing out that there is a difference between general racism and institutional racism doesn't somehow dilute the reality of the seriousness of institutional racism... Which seems to be some people's concern.

Wait a minute, you can't say prejudice is any less of a word than racism. :/

The literal definition is prejudice on the grounds of race and yet that has no historical connotations to it does it, it doesn't take into account the oppression, repression and suppression does it?
It's a blanket term that 'whitewashes' ( ) the true meaning of racism.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Wait a minute, you can't say prejudice is any less of a word than racism. :/

The literal definition is prejudice on the grounds of race and yet that has no historical connotations to it does it, it doesn't take into account the oppression, repression and suppression does it?
It's a blanket term that 'whitewashes' ( ) the true meaning of racism.

I didn't say it's "less" of a word, I pointed out that it's not descriptive enough, there are a million different varieties of prejudice. Prejudice on the grounds of age is ageism, prejudice on the grounds of sex is sexism, prejudice on the grounds of race is racism.

The type of racism you are talking about, both with historical context and with regards to there being an element of power / control today, is called institutional racism. The adjective is important, it's what let's you know what sort of racism we're talking about. It doesn't dilute or whitewash the term "racism". If anything, it adds to the implied severity?