[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Firstly, I don't recognise the term 'cis', imposed upon me by people with an agenda.

Every time there's someone on TV campaigning hard for transsexual rights, it's going to be a trans female insisting she's a woman.

Never, ever, heard a female to male do it. Maybe that's why transwoman have SO much support from men?

The fact that the "feminist" in the OP has had death threats and pictures of her children posted online, as happens to a lot of women who stand up against the idea that trans woman and born woman are exactly the same, demonstrates the kind of response born women get when they disagree. Where is the outrage over that? Maybe their not screaming in our faces, but their tactics are ****ing hysterical and outrageous.*

* I have to say I don't find all transwoman to be this way. Just the militants.

Well, cis is a dictionary defined word I used in the correct context.

I don't condone anything that has happened to the "feminist" in the OP. But I daresay the strong response she has received isn't something that women will get in general for having a different opinion, but because she gives that opinion alongside all of her offensive views in her higher profile and militant ways. Just as those trans people who put themselves forward as the campaigners for what they believe in are the ones that get the most abuse too.

Never heard a female to male say it, because they don't need to. Maybe they're more accepted.

[Marsh.]

Transactivists receive no abuse? Ok, I'll take your word for it.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Transactivists receive no abuse? Ok, I'll take your word for it.

You don't need to take my word for it, go check out their timelines. They may get the odd abusive message but its nothing at all like what feminists get. Each of my twitter posts gets at least 20 threats and 'bitch' 'slut' etc type replies. Even ones that are **** all to do with trans matters, because I am on the radar of these men who want women to shut up about stuff that affects them.

[Nicky91]

i get the problem with this, but it's also not that India is a likeable person, not at all, the way she came over on CBB

so if that feminist just told India she isn't a good role model for the women in general, there wasn't any problem whatsoever

it's just the way this person said it now, came over as homophobic, insult towards the LGBTQ community and that is just plain rude

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

i get the problem with this, but it's also not that India is a likeable person, not at all, the way she came over on CBB

so if that feminist just told India she isn't a good role model for the women in general, there wasn't any problem whatsoever

it's just the way this person said it now, came over as homophobic, insult towards the LGBTQ community and that is just plain rude

Theres not generally a problem with post op people like India. Posie was invited on to discuss transactivism as a whole, then railroaded into discussing one trans person, when its not about individuals, its about the movement as a whole. And I genuinely cannot see how anyone can think that any man should be able to declare himself a woman and have womans rights. I don't. And I definitely do not see how people can not see that opening up womens rights to men makes womens rights meaningless. The word woman matters. Cis is sexist bollocks (against both men and women) as it relies solely on sex stereotypes. Transwomen are transwomen, and women are women. I don't get what the issue is with saying that.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Theres not generally a problem with post op people like India. Posie was invited on to discuss transactivism as a whole, then railroaded into discussing one trans person, when its not about individuals, its about the movement as a whole. And I genuinely cannot see how anyone can think that any man should be able to declare himself a woman and have womans rights. I don't. And I definitely do not see how people can not see that opening up womens rights to men makes womens rights meaningless.

and trans people are also quite insecure, not all of them but many are quite insecure, i personally am not against trans people, everyone has the right to be happy who they are for themselves

there definitely isn't much respect for women's rights, which should improve honestly, that subject has been going on for a long time now

equality for me is what should be more in the world, everyone is the same, we are all human, sorry if i sound poetic now with this

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

and trans people are also quite insecure, not all of them but many are quite insecure, i personally am not against trans people, everyone has the right to be happy who they are for themselves

there definitely isn't much respect for women's rights, which should improve honestly, that subject has been going on for a long time now

equality for me is what should be more in the world, everyone is the same, we are all human, sorry if i sound poetic now with this

See I know this view will be controversial here, but equality is not what I want. I want equity. Acknowledgement that some of us are different (for example women have different needs to men a lot of the time due to biology) and steps taken to try and make everything fairer.



In the case of the topic at hand, that would be a third unisex option for transpeople. ONTOP of single sex areas. So they have the right to use either the areas of their sex, or the unisex one if they do not feel comfortable using the areas that their sex is meant to use. As sex segregated areas are segregated by sex, not 'gender' anyway, and this needs to be acknowledged by all really. There is absolutely no point in segregating areas where one is naked or vulnerable by 'gender' which amounts to nothing more than a feeling in ones head, that a lot of people don't even have! (though women have had an honour system with transsexuals going for years and years anyway, where women will politely pretend they do not know the person is male, as they acknowledge that they have a difficult life. This is massively under threat with the behaviour/demands of transactivists tbh).

[Livia]

Interesting that it's mostly the males on this thread are telling us how bad transsexuals have it. And yes, some of them do, and I'm truly sorry for that. Everyone has a right to be happy.

That doesn't make the outrageous campaign against any woman who speaks out acceptable.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Interesting that it's mostly the males on this thread are telling us how bad transsexuals have it. And yes, some of them do, and I'm truly sorry for that. Everyone has a right to be happy.

That doesn't make the outrageous campaign against any woman who speaks out acceptable.

Who said it was acceptable? You seem to be putting words in mouths now.

You seem a little too preoccupied with dismissing opinions as "Oooh, well that's a male forum member so their view doesn't matter". Knock yourself out.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Who said it was acceptable? You seem to be putting words in mouths now.

You seem a little too preoccupied with dismissing opinions as "Oooh, well that's a male forum member so their view doesn't matter". Knock yourself out.

You do me a disservice Marshy. Look at the reaction to Vicky's post saying what the "Feminist" ( keep putting it in inverted commas because I'm too lazy to go back and find out her name) has suffered since exercising her freedom of speech. If a transsexual and his/her family/kids went through the same I wonder if people would be more worried?

And yes, men are entitled to have their say. But so are woman. Sadly if women have their say they run the risk of being abused online, at best, and in receipt of vile threats at worse.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

You do me a disservice Marshy. Look at the reaction to Vicky's post saying what the "Feminist" ( keep putting it in inverted commas because I'm too lazy to go back and find out her name) has suffered since exercising her freedom of speech. If a transsexual and his/her family/kids went through the same I wonder if people would be more worried?

I'm sorry, you're posing a hypothetical scenario and want to discuss that rather than the topic at hand. If not, I don't follow?

Originally Posted by Livia

And yes, men are entitled to have their say. But so are woman. Sadly if women have their say they run the risk of being abused online, at best, and in receipt of vile threats at worse.

That doesn't explain why you feel the need to point out the genders/sexes of forum members, unless such a thing is happening in this very discussion.

Saying women receive online abuse is fine, it's factual. Framing it with comments about this thread/forum itself is needless IMO.

[Marsh.]

Moving the goalposts of the discussion from India Willoughby and this blogger and the debate they've had to the larger and more extreme examples of both of them doesn't help a reasoned discussion neither. It's all a little muddled.

Such as the points actually raised in this debate versus "can anyone identify as anything" are a different and much larger discussion IMO.

[Vicky.]

I think it helps to have a bit more background of quite what we are dealing with here And the reasons Posie has ended up with the action of the billboard (which was what she was invited to discuss..the billboard, why it happened and the behaviour of transactivists, not India Willougby).. As women are just not being listened to. This has forced the issue really, and oddly enough, most people appear to agree with Posie, though seem to think she has a very harsh way of putting her opinions across. But yes, noone actually thinks transwomen are women. Hence 'transwoman'. And thats ****ing fine! Except apparently its not.

[Chero]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I think it helps to have a bit more background of quite what we are dealing with here And the reasons Posie has ended up with the action of the billboard (which was what she was invited to discuss..the billboard, why it happened and the behaviour of transactivists, not India Willougby).. As women are just not being listened to. This has forced the issue really, and oddly enough, most people appear to agree with Posie, though seem to think she has a very harsh way of putting her opinions across. But yes, noone actually thinks transwomen are women. Hence 'transwoman'. And thats ****ing fine! Except apparently its not.

It's only fine if you can get a man to agree with you.

[Vicky.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4IhPncF3w

Check out the difference between sky news, and the this morning **** show. Sky news actually stuck to the topic she was meant to be talking about. This morning was meant to be about the same thing, not one specific post op transsexual.

I especially like her ending comment, about the whole reason she did it was because she knew entitled males would kick off about it. That basically their (predicted) reaction would get publicity for whats going on. And it has. 700 quid well spent (and refunded, after the misogynist doctor who takes part in doxxing also, complained. And she got a refund and now has another billboard)

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4IhPncF3w

Check out the difference between sky news, and the this morning **** show. Sky news actually stuck to the topic she was meant to be talking about. This morning was meant to be about the same thing, not one specific post op transsexual.

I especially like her ending comment, about the whole reason she did it was because she knew entitled males would kick off about it. That basically their (predicted) reaction would get publicity for whats going on. And it has. 700 quid well spent (and refunded, after the misogynist doctor who takes part in doxxing also, complained. And she got a refund and now has another billboard)

"Entitled males" being trans women?

So they can't be "women" but now can't be "trans women" either so just "males"?

Or are they referring to men of all forms?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

"Entitled males" being trans women?

So they can't be "women" but now can't be "trans women" either so just "males"?

Or are they referring to men of all forms?

Entitled males being transactivists, not transwomen. Most transactivists are not even transsexual (and will abuse those who are actually transexual), at least the ones who kick off about stuff like the dictionary definition of woman..aren't. Transactivists on the whole, are just MRAs, or misogynists latching onto a cause. Obviously not all transactivists are like that, some genuinely do care about transsexual people. But the ones who are sending out daily threats to women, they aren't actually transsexual, usually.

[smudgie]

India is a woman. Having had the full transaction. ( not sure if that’s the correct description).
I am a woman.
I don’t feel my femininity is threatened by transsexuals.
For medical purposes I am a biological woman.
I really don’t get the constant hype and aggro about it all.
Live and let live.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by smudgie

India is a woman. Having had the full transaction. ( not sure if that’s the correct description).
I am a woman.
I don’t feel my femininity is threatened by transsexuals.
For medical purposes I am a biological woman.
I really don’t get the constant hype and aggro about it all.
Live and let live.

The sentiment is good Smudgie and I believe that was what was happening before all these campaigns to change laws that could potentially put women in danger with this Self ID stuff ie. putting male rapists in female prisons because they say they're female now. That's doing a disservice to not only biological women but also to genuine trans people like India

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The sentiment is good Smudgie and I believe that was what was happening before all these campaigns to change laws that could potentially put women in danger with this Self ID stuff ie. putting male rapists in female prisons because they say they're female now. That's doing a disservice to not only biological women but also to genuine trans people like India

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.
Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.
Perhaps the disabled toilets could be renamed and shared between disabled and trans.
I know wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by smudgie

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.
Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.
Perhaps the disabled toilets could be renamed and shared between disabled and trans.
I know wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.

Oh yeah, I agree with you on all that

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.
Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.
Perhaps the disabled toilets could be renamed and shared between disabled and trans.
I know wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.

I don't think this is an acceptable solution. I do understand why people think thats an acceptable compromise, however disabled people fought very hard, for a long time for disabled loos and such. To just decide that men who like wearing a dress on fridays should be able to use disabled loos..well no.

And no , thats not hyperbole either. Such men are classed as women on the days they wear a dress. Infact a guy like this recently got an award for 'women in business' when hes basically a part time transvestite. Thats been quite publicized, and has woke up a lot of people to the issue too.

However I agree that no penis should be the requirement for womens areas. Its absolutely insane to me that some people think its fine for preop people to use female changing rooms.

And whats interesting is (and many on this site will not like me saying this) its accepted that transwomen do not want to use the mens loos because they are scared of male violence. Fair enough. However, when women say they do not want males in their areas because they are scared of male violence, they are declared bigots. So, how does that work? Answers on a postcard. Thats why I think the only solution to all of this is a further unisex option being made available wherever possible. Much like disabled areas, just not colonizing disabled areas.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by smudgie

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.

I don't see the point in this as they'll always be biologically male, no matter what they have done to their penis. Inverting it won't make them any more female, so I'm not gonna base how I see them based on it. Transwomen are transwomen.

Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.

But this I agree with.

[Yuki Maru Hoshi]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I don't see the point in this as they'll always be biologically male, no matter what they have done to their penis. Inverting it won't make them any more female, so I'm not gonna base how I see them based on it. Transwomen are transwomen.


But this I agree with.

Yeah if they're full-time the other sex, then I would regard them as their converted sex. But legally, there has to be some common sense... but the thing with toilets, it's not like we ask people for their ID when they go to the restroom... so not sure how that could really be enforced? After all, I think I read that they can get a diagnose after living as the opposite sex for a time, and well... part of that would mean entering the restrooms I think? (How does that work, I wonder?)

[Vicky.]

Cite which paragraph maru, and from where? Sorry I am drawing a blank at what you are meaning, and no doubt once you explain further it will make a lot of sense, but genuinely cannot understand right no