[bots]

people get angry any time there is injustice, and this is no different. There shouldn't be any excuses, there should be a change so it doesnt happen again

[Mokka]

I wasn't going to post in this thread... I tend to avoid all the trans threads started on this forum as they are only ever highlighting negatives of trans people in our communities, and hyper focusing on negative issues amongst the minority of trans people.
I had read of this case prior to Niamh starting the thread... and I also sat down with my own trans kid to have an open discussion about what is happening in this situation.
It seems obvious to me that this individual is seeking out, in a very wrong manner, reasons to accuse other people of transphobia to bring to the legal system to create a precedent. Now Kizzy has said in here if I recall that she in particular takes issue with how the legal system in Canada is handling this (or these) cases. I am not aware if any cases have been won yet in this area, but that they are all in legal proceedings from the reputable news source i went to. To that I say, if she didn't have any grounds for a case, the court would not have let it go in front of a judge. I myself have been brought in front of a judge for something that I didn't believe the claimant had grounds to do.... it was thrown out later on. It was a hardship and inconvenience at the time.... but justice worked it's course. That seems to be what is happening here. We live in a litigious society. The people harmed by her false accusations can counter sue back afterwards. That's unfortunately how our justice system works.

But... I strongly agree with everything TS has said in this thread... as a woman who thinks he is allowed an opinion despite his penis... and as someone who knows a fair decent amount of decent trans people. Women's liberties are not being stepped on. There are legalities on how our society should and can go forward to further include trans people as equal citizens... and that will get worked out more and more over time...
But the long standing claim on here that all male to female trans people are treading on the long fought victories in equality for woman is false... and is a masked version of transphobia.

Sorry for the essay

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Mokka

I wasn't going to post in this thread... I tend to avoid all the trans threads started on this forum as they are only ever highlighting negatives of trans people in our communities, and hyper focusing on negative issues amongst the minority of trans people.
I had read of this case prior to Niamh starting the thread... and I also sat down with my own trans kid to have an open discussion about what is happening in this situation.
It seems obvious to me that this individual is seeking out, in a very wrong manner, reasons to accuse other people of transphobia to bring to the legal system to create a precedent. Now Kizzy has said in here if I recall that she in particular takes issue with how the legal system in Canada is handling this (or these) cases. I am not aware if any cases have been won yet in this area, but that they are all in legal proceedings from the reputable news source i went to. To that I say, if she didn't have any grounds for a case, the court would not have let it go in front of a judge. I myself have been brought in front of a judge for something that I didn't believe the claimant had grounds to do.... it was thrown out later on. It was a hardship and inconvenience at the time.... but justice worked it's course. That seems to be what is happening here. We live in a litigious society. The people harmed by her false accusations can counter sue back afterwards. That's unfortunately how our justice system works.

But... I strongly agree with everything TS has said in this thread... as a woman who thinks he is allowed an opinion despite his penis... and as someone who knows a fair decent amount of decent trans people. Women's liberties are not being stepped on. There are legalities on how our society should and can go forward to further include trans people as equal citizens... and that will get worked out more and more over time...
But the long standing claim on here that all male to female trans people are treading on the long fought victories in equality for woman is false... and is a masked version of transphobia.

Sorry for the essay

Let me be clear ... I'm not saying that the trans community are treading on anything... my issue is how this issue specifically has been dealt with in isolation.
I have voiced a concern that in time similar cases may occur in the UK.
That is not in any way transphobic... it has nothing to do with the trans community and everything to do with the legal system.
It is relatively clear from the interview that this person is a predator, I am only at this time commenting on this one case. I haven't expressed any opinion or view on the wider subject of trans rights...Therefore I don't feel it is fair to insinuate any perceived transphobia based on my comments in this thread masked or otherwise.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Let me be clear ... I'm not saying that the trans community are treading on anything... my issue is how this issue specifically has been dealt with in isolation.
I have voiced a concern that in time similar cases may occur in the UK.
That is not in any way transphobic... it has nothing to do with the trans community and everything to do with the legal system.
It is relatively clear from the interview that this person is a predator, I am only at this time commenting on this one case. I haven't expressed any opinion or view on the wider subject of trans rights...Therefore I don't feel it is fair to insinuate any perceived transphobia based on my comments in this thread masked or otherwise.

I didn't... I only referred to your post as it related to legal issues... which I thought I made clear by separating my comment on it from my other references.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Mokka

I didn't... I only referred to your post as it related to legal issues... which I thought I made clear by separating my comment on it from my other references.

Well I'll try again with this seeing as my comment has gone...
The legal issues ARE the issue. In relation to human rights, it is only this that has been allegedly violated.

[Cherie]

There isn't much comfort in being able to sue someone who more than likely hasn't got a pot to piss in once you have lost your business, income, and reputation.

The only reason imo this has got to court is because the guy is identifying as trans and as we can see from how people are immediately labelled on this forum, in the real world people are fearful of losing their jobs or putting a foot wrong in case of an almighty life ruining backlash. The trans community should be up in arms about this guy, he is an opportunist and is exploiting them

When Holly and Jessica were murdered by a school caretaker, the way school staff were vetted was changed so this was less likely to happen ever again

When Vanessa George was convicted of using her mobile phone in a nursery setting, steps were taken and staff can no longer use their mobiles while working into a nursery setting.

school staff or nursery staff were not up in arms at the changes, nor did they feel victimised in any way, they were welcomed as a safeguarding measure.

The point being we shouldn't need to have 'loads of cases' before something is done to stop opportunists

In the same way the trans and wider community need to be safeguarded against opportunists, not sure who is going to put their head above the parapet to do it, but it needs to be done

[user104658]

It's not a hypothetical, it's an example of a comparable situation that would be viewed differently and perfectly relevant to the thread topic. Because no one is arguing that loopholes are being exploited and manipulated for individual gain here; it's the very clear subtext on "what that means when it comes to wider trans issues" that is questionable.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not a hypothetical, it's an example of a comparable situation that would be viewed differently and perfectly relevant to the thread topic. Because no one is arguing that loopholes are being exploited and manipulated for individual gain here; it's the very clear subtext on "what that means when it comes to wider trans issues" that is questionable.

No it isn't. .. There's no way in heaven that rights of a terrorist would be given priority over the public, and a terrorist is a criminal... where is the criminal in this situation?

[Kizzy]

And in your eyes she is still the victim...
You haven't passed one comment on the beauticians in this case, where is your concern for their mental health?...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And in your eyes she is still the victim...
You haven't passed one comment on the beauticians in this case, where is your concern for their mental health?...

they seem targeted aswell, women who were struggling a bit, single mothers and immigrants who may not have the means to fight their case and stand up for themselves properly

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

they seem targeted aswell, women who were struggling a bit, single mothers and immigrants who may not have the means to fight their case and stand up for themselves properly

Yes I agree there will be lots of places who said yes to the treatment, from the interview there are multiple businesses being sued. Some have settled, some gone out of business and many still ongoing cases the amount of money involved is $8000- $15,000!
And our sympathy should be with this exploitative preditor?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes I agree there will be lots of places who said yes to the treatment, from the interview there are multiple businesses being sued. Some have settled, some gone out of business and many still ongoing cases the amount of money involved is $8000- $15,000!
And our sympathy should be with this exploitative preditor?

...it was very precise about the money sums as the interviewer made an error with one amount and it was immediately corrected...that’s one of the things that is really off for me...the winning of the tribunals seemed to be all about the cash over not feeling as though equality was being applied...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And in your eyes she is still the victim...
You haven't passed one comment on the beauticians in this case, where is your concern for their mental health?...

I haven't sympathised with them once and have repeatedly referred to them as a dangerous, predatory paedophile. Honestly if you look into it - as awful as the effect on the beautician's livelihoods has been - this is the LEAST of what this person is out there doing and I think there is probably a very real risk posed.

I've also said multiple times that the legal loopholes that are being used to exploit people and destroy their businesses need to be addressed and, in fact, I'm sure I said (or at least I have when discussing this elsewhere) that I think it's ridiculous that a business that involves getting up close and personal with people's genitals doesn't have the right to refuse service without question.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not gender pronouns should be respected? Like I said, an M2F serial killer should still be "she". It doesn't mean I sympathise with their crimes?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I haven't sympathised with them once and have repeatedly referred to them as a dangerous, predatory paedophile. Honestly if you look into it - as awful as the effect on the beautician's livelihoods has been - this is the LEAST of what this person is out there doing and I think there is probably a very real risk posed.

I've also said multiple times that the legal loopholes that are being used to exploit people and destroy their businesses need to be addressed and, in fact, I'm sure I said (or at least I have when discussing this elsewhere) that I think it's ridiculous that a business that involves getting up close and personal with people's genitals doesn't have the right to refuse service without question.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not gender pronouns should be respected? Like I said, an M2F serial killer should still be "she". It doesn't mean I sympathise with their crimes?

Yes you did.... you made excuses that the mishandling of their transition could've led to the manifestation of predatory behaviour!
In this case both sets are applicable as both are used.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes you did.... you made excuses that the mishandling of their transition could've led to the manifestation of predatory behaviour!
In this case both sets are applicable as both are used.

Reasons and explanations for abnormal psychology always exist, are usually fascinating and interesting to understand, and are not by any means excuses, or expressions of sympathy. Unless you believe that the entire academic discipline of criminal psychology boils down to "excuse making".

This is a discussion that's been done to death on this forum across a myriad of discussions. It's not worth ploughing through again.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Reasons and explanations for abnormal psychology always exist, are usually fascinating and interesting to understand, and are not by any means excuses, or expressions of sympathy. Unless you believe that the entire academic discipline of criminal psychology boils down to "excuse making".

This is a discussion that's been done to death on this forum across a myriad of discussions. It's not worth ploughing through again.

Ah right do now youve had my comments counter to yours removed youve had enough? Youre not a psychologist ts.

But lets pretend, should I be one personally I'd say your focus on the preditor than the women preyed on in this scenario speaks volumes.

[Vicky.]

Yaniv is a disgusting individual, but the fact that this whole farce has been able to get as far as it has is possibly even worse. Women put out of business for refusing to touch someones balls for ****s sake. I thought this was a joke at first when I first read about it years back. Have referred to balldemort on here before actually in passing. But yeah, of course self ID opens the doors for perverts such as yaniv. Which has always been the feminist argument tbh (though almost always misreprsented as 'you think all trans people are perverts!!!111'). Yes, men will perv anyway, but why make it easier for them..and basically allow situations such as the one thats currently going on.

Have been following this quite closely and tbh, it does seem hes going to lose this, as he should. But that they hav been dragged to court to start with, is ****ing ridiculous and the system really needs to be looked at. Also Yaniv needs treatment for his obvious mental health issues. And locking away from kids forever, too tbh.

Also sorry, **** calling an abusive bloke like this she. Him and his mother are raging racists, ontop of everything else, from the court transcripts. Media might start picking it up now, there was a reporting ban on until very recently, as Yaniv said his privacy would be rbeached, yadayada..but the judge just overturned it as Yaniv has been posting on his twitter about the case.

The women were of course right to refuse. They did not have training in waxing men. Andf its very very different. Hell, if they had done it, they might have damaged him permanently. And honestly, even without that, just the fact they didn't want to touch his dick should be enough to lose the matter entirely. Not go through months of court cases.

[Vicky.]

The pronoun argument, Yaniv goes by both he and she too. He uses both Jonathon and Jessica as names also. So its not really possible to misgender him, as he uses both depending on the situation..

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The pronoun argument, Yaniv goes by both he and she too. He uses both Jonathon and Jessica as names also. So its not really possible to misgender him, as he uses both depending on the situation..

...yeah that was the other thing actually which I forgot ...it had stated the person identified by both he and she../..using Jonathan and Jessica...so I made a decision which I would use because I don’t atm believe anything about them...again this is a very unique and individual case with no direct comparisons...

[Vicky.]

Niamh often posts about feminist stuff tbh. And you cannot really get more of a feminist issue, than a bloke trying to sue (multiple) women for refusing to touch his balls. And the system allowing this circus when surely, anyone with half a brain can see whats going on here.

[Vicky.]

http://archive.is/xqu5H
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...570880512.html

Couple of updates from tribunal, not sure if they have been posted, but its fascinating, seeing the 'neo nazi' type arguments.

The period fetish thing weirds me out almost more than the obsession with young girls. Mind, the young girls thing is linked to the period thing too it seems

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

http://archive.is/xqu5H
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...570880512.html

Couple of updates from tribunal, not sure if they have been posted, but its fascinating, seeing the 'neo nazi' type arguments.

The period fetish thing weirds me out almost more than the obsession with young girls. Mind, the young girls thing is linked to the period thing too it seems

...it’s weird and gets more weird...it states there is a ban on making public anything from the tribunal proceedings...but there’s more or less the full transcript online plus a video recording...I mean how was it not noticed that someone was taking a video recording throughout something like that...?...all odd...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it’s weird and gets more weird...it states there is a ban on making public anything from the tribunal proceedings...but there’s more or less the full transcript online plus a video recording...I mean how was it not noticed that someone was taking a video recording throughout something like that...?...all odd...

The actual recording was only after the reporting ban was lifted.

Otherwise, it seems the case could be spoke about, but not using Yanivs actual name. or something.

all very odd, regardless

[Vicky.]

https://mobile.twitter.com/goinglike...03630974046208
https://mobile.twitter.com/goinglike...70487347400704
Some more too. First few days of the tribunal, only one person was in the gallery apparently, seems more are getting interested..journalist types have been showing up recently too.

[Kizzy]

You've suggested you know the reason why some members of the forum engage in these debates, our involvement has been analysed to the nth degree... why wouldn't I think you haven't applied the same energy to the subject here? Now you say your opinion is simply musings?...
The morbid curiosity that surrounds serial killers is not relevant here surely?... This is just, lets face it a chancer that you have chosen to elevate in an attempt to evaluate his actions as someone more complex in order to explain away his criminality.