[Maru]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Cite which paragraph maru, and from where? Sorry I am drawing a blank at what you are meaning, and no doubt once you explain further it will make a lot of sense, but genuinely cannot understand right no

The transactivists ~= men's rights activist portion

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Maru

The transactivists ~= men's rights activist portion

Oh thats just my own personal opinion on the matter tbh.

Obviously goes a lot deeper than this, and there are multiple other examples, but its very clear to me that the majority of transactivists are just MRAs with a new angle to attack womens rights. This image gives the gist of it, though maybe is a bit childish


(AGAIN, though it shouldn't need saying, I am not saying all transsexual women are MRAs. But I do feel that the majority of transactivists, especially ones I have personally encountered are. And I think your common garden variety misogynist is very attracted to this movement as they get to tell women to shut the **** up AND seem all 'woke' when doing so. Seems to attract a lot of incels too.)



Late edit - did you mean can you cite it? If so, then yes of course. Feel free to swipe any of my posts for stuff like that really. Question confused me

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Oh thats just my own personal opinion on the matter tbh.

Obviously goes a lot deeper than this, and there are multiple other examples, but its very clear to me that the majority of transactivists are just MRAs with a new angle to attack womens rights. This image gives the gist of it, though maybe is a bit childish


(AGAIN, though it shouldn't need saying, I am not saying all transsexual women are MRAs. But I do feel that the majority of transactivists, especially ones I have personally encountered are. And I think your common garden variety misogynist is very attracted to this movement as they get to tell women to shut the **** up AND seem all 'woke' when doing so. Seems to attract a lot of incels too.)

Whatever the case, Vicky, that's a really interesting theory. Some keen insight there. Even if it's only a subconscious thing, I could see that playing out to some degree as you say... it's certainly more convincing than throwing around the word "patriarchy" anytime someone wants to get their point across... in your points, it sounds like you and even Livia may have touched on a nerve, things going on beneath the surface that maybe we discount somewhat with the topic of the moment being transactivism.

Myself though, my distraction is probably that I do tend to think men get an unfair wrap sometimes. It does take mutual cooperation for any lasting changes to occur, something we have forgotten in an era that centers around the activists themselves.

I do see the sexes as two necessary forces in life that are forced to work together, even if they often don't want to. Kind of life marriage, really ... one can't live without the other and so-on... our society would fall apart. So I do think there is a breaking point when either or one of the sexes is put underneath a lot of stress... as we've seen in the past and are seeing today.

I don't think I've ever met someone who is an MRA? So I don't have a mental framework for those type of folk, how they would think. I think the closest equivalent are maybe some people I'd seen or heard about on YT. It's hard to tell how much of that is authentic hough, with everything being about inducing shock vs. woke-ness...

I know we all know some men who have issues with the patronizing attitude that comes from Feminism towards them and their own thought-processes... that they just can't help but be men, and yet, are supposed to help it at the same time ... and there are some great reasons for some of that criticism imo. To be fair, I prefer a world where we criticize and criticize often... as long as it remains constructive and not destructive... that's the balance.

Edit: Also that image was hilarious...

[Vicky.]

I don't mean MRA as in someone who is actually concerned about the rights of men.

I mean MRA as in, extremely problematic misogynist who blames feminists for everything and basically only 'what about the men's as a way of slating feminism and women in general.

I believe transactivism in its current form (again, not people actually concerned for the rights of transsexual people) is a backlash against feminism, against the gains women have made recently. Afterall, what better way to destroy womens rights, than to open them up to men too. Transactivism gives men who dislike women intensely (as many transactivists do) a 'woke' excuse to tell women to shut the **** up, to discredit them, and to threaten them in very...MRA like ways. Like threatening to rape them or their children. I think the whole thing we have today is kind of the perfect storm. Of course most people have sympathy for transsexual people, but I think many nefarious kinds of people are piggybacking on a genuine cause, for their own gains. This includes

-MRAs who just hate women/feminism in general. Not much needs said on this issue really. Anyone can see why such types would be attracted to this movement.

-Incels who wish to guilt trip people into sleeping with them. There are many many people currently trying to guilt trip lesbians into shagging male people. Theres been workshops about this. Its nicknamed the 'cotton ceiling' and its just ****ing disgusting. I have spoken to a fair few lesbians who have had issues with this. 'Transwomen' yelling transphobia when the lesbian refused to shag their very male self. Of cause transsexual people who are attracted to women understand that lesbians may not be attracted to them..again they are not the problem here. Its 'transgender' males...often those who have made no physical changes whatsoever, who assert their right to sex. And become very bitter when told no. Unfortunately when attached to the 'trans' label, its not looked at like regular incel behaviour and laughed away and ridiculed. Its taken seriously and there are a fair few lefty dudebros in the wings waiting to attack any lesbian woman who asserts her boundaries. Becuse 'transphobia'. As a very prominent and well known example...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5GYlZKfBmI
But this ridiculous type of view is fairly widespread among todays 'transactivists'

-Homophobes. Lesbophobes in particular. See above cotton ceiling which is self explanatory. But it goes a bit deeper than that. Many many gay people are gender non-conforming. I would say most people are to some extent ,but its more prominent in the LGB community. The likes of butch lesbians are being pressured to become transmen, as they are clearly really men. They cannot possibly just be butch women. Ontop of this you have Mermaids and such pushing for child transition (Mermaids is a pressure group, who there have been issues with in the past. https://4thwavenow.com/2016/11/12/th...ed-in-stealth/ ). When the huge majority of children who are gender questioning....essentially grow out of it, and the majority of these children will simply grow up to be gay. Where, when put on 'puberty blockers (read. cancer drugs) near 100% of these children will go on to transition. Essentially 'transing away the gay'

-Paedophiles. Hot on the heels of 'child transition', of course paedophiles have a special interest in all of this too. Putting young children on puberty blockers, creates 'legal children'. This part is hard for me to talk about as it sickens me too much so I won't go into it too much..but joining the dots here should be easy enough. Also allowing children to make the huge decision to 'change sex' opens the doors for really...saying children can consent for stuff. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see, if this is all still going in a few years, people pushing to lower the age of consent. Lets not forget that paedophiles tried (luckily unsuccessfully) to piggyback on the back of the LGB community once before. Not sure if anyone on here remembers the Paedophile Information Exchange, and how they attached themselves to those campaigning for gay rights. And how their movement was very nearly successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedop...ation_Exchange .

-Sexual predators. Again, self explanatory. Wanting easier access to women and children.
If any man has access to female areas, this benefits this group immensely. The prison service warned against this during Maria Millers Trans Equality Report...during which, she ignored womens groups and basically anyone who spoke of any potential problems, and invited only those entirely unquestioning of the transactivists narrative to give further evidence. One pf the prominent transactivists consulted for the report, was Jess Bradley. Jess is currently suspended from their job as NUS trans officer. As a blog was discovered where Jess was unveiling Jess' penis to unsuspecting members of the public, including getting it out at Jess' desk at work. People like Jess have a vested interest in opening up female areas to everyone, as Jess' hobby is flashing. Infact a fair few prominent transactivists have dodgy pasts/present behaviour. Jess, and people like Jess have been a huge part of the way things are today, where businesses/schools have been misled to think that single sex areas are illegal and girlscouts have gone mixed sex by stealth. But I swear this post would go on forever if I went into all of that and most people will just dismiss it anyway. Only reason I am going into so much detail here is because I know you will actually read it maru I only really do this when talking to you or jack.

I may possibly have forgotten some other groups I believe are involved in this perfect storm...as its late and I am half asleep. Of course, though again it shouldn't need to be said as it should be taken as a given really, I am not saying that all transsexual people are predators, or homophobes or whatever. This is my observations/thoughts on transactivism as it stands today. Its not about the rights of transsexual people at all. Infact transsexual people are branded truscum by todays transactivists and get just as much abuse as women do. Which proves in itself that this is not about transsexuals.

A couple of links on the topic that I have bookmarked. One is a wider explanation of it all. The other is a recent explanation from a gay man who was until recently very involved with Stonewall and used to run 'Queer up North' who has recently started speaking out on this. Some of his other pieces are really good too, should be able to follow them from that link if you feel like it. Also petition to Stonewall..by Jonny and a bunch of prominent LGBT people, including some transsexuals.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress...re-notadebate/
https://medium.com/@JonnnyBest/calli...s-9df277ecb59e
https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/...-your-approach


And finally, a glossary of a load of stuff about this topic. I know people on here will take the piss for a mumsnet link, but **** it tbh. Its one of the only places on the internet women can actually talk about this issue that will affect/has affected us, though men keep claiming it won't/doesn't

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_...iced-here?pg=1


So yeah. Long post, but you have my theory on it all. Yet again, not claiming all, or even most transsexual people are like this. Transsexdual people are not the problem. Other people are, and especially transactivists/MRA.s

[bots]

Wow thanks for all that detail Vicky, it's certainly clarified a lot of detail for me.

On the topic of safe spaces. I don't really see toilets as being safe spaces at all and perhaps thats part of my problem understanding some of the discussion.

There is a primary functional difference between a mens and womans toilet ... one has a urinal and the other doesnt, and that is there to service the differences in anatomy between a man and a woman. So, someone with a dick, should use the toilets with a urinal if we are looking at things logically.

From a male perspective, I don't associate toilets with safe spaces at all. One only has to look at well publicised cases featuring MP's and George Michael to name a few, where it has been a decidedly unsafe space.

What I'm trying to say i think is that there are places where people are more vulnerable than they would be otherwise and the solution to that vulnerability has to be more all encompassing than segregation by anatomy. People should just be safe and protected from predators in going about their daily lives ... and that is the ultimate goal surely.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Blurryface

Youtube video

Completely siding with India here.

...just going back to the OP and the vid...I really can’t gel with this ‘feminst’ at all..and I guess it goes back to what TS said, in how femist is defined, which is varying quite a lot it seems...I mean I have not once in my life experienced women defined as cervix havers or menstruators or chest feeders...yeah, maybe pregnant people..like ‘she’s a pregnant woman’ type thing, when it’s relevant to refer to a pregnancy for some reason...she doesn’t represent a world I know as a woman...she talks about one person who apparently wears a dress one day a week who has been given an award...I have no idea who Philip Bunce is but whoever he is...he’s one person so not a representative..anyways I couldn’t really get much further in the vid in trying to rewatch it and I can’t recall it all from before...Because it makes me so sad for transgender people...what does living as a woman mean...WHAT DOES LIVING AS A WOMAN MEAN..!!! ..define it for me..!!!!...well I guess it’s defined as the same as what does living as a man mean...a woman living within her gender or a man living within his gender, everything matching and everything fitting in terms of the body born into, would be how I would define...India will never be a cervix haver...she can never menstruate so can’t be a menstruator...or a chest feeder..because she’s not a born woman and that can’t ever change...So either in a man body of the past or a woman body of now, I doubt she sees herself as ever having experiences of any priveledge of either gender...she can though live her life as what she feels she is...a woman...

[Livia]

Just to echo what Bots has said, thanks Vicky. I always read your posts on this particular subject because they're packed with facts and make the subject so much easier to get my head around. You kind of put into words what I'm thinking.

And thanks everyone who's posted so far... it's been enlightening and interesting.

[Elliot]

Legitimately curious, to people in this thread what constitutes as an mra? I don’t really call myself a feminist or mra but whenever I state my values or what I believe on certain topic I get told stuff like ‘well by definition you’re a feminist since it’s literally just the term for advocacy of women’s rights’ and in a sense couldn’t someone use this inflection to go, for example supporting the idea of domestic abuse shelters for men, that I’m an mra? And thus since it seems to be a dirty word, such as feminist is in a lot of circles..

Idk it just seems weird to me because at the end of the day they’re only labels but I’ve had people take me to down on the guilt by association when it comes to using the word feminism debate but these same people also slate mras so

[Livia]

Elliot, have a Google around and look at some of the MRA nonsense out there.

[Vicky.]

I don't believe feminism is 'wanting everyone to be equal'. Thats egalitarianism. IMO feminism is a movement about the liberation of female people. Equality (or equity as I posted up thread) is the end goal, but its about female people on the whole. As such the endless calls to centre male people in feminism are bizarre to me. Kind of like how you wouldn't expect black lives matter to be fighting for people who are not black, though they may still care about non-blacks

MRA, as I said...is not someone genuinely concerned for the rights of men. The MRAs I am talking about only make out they care about men as a stick to beat feminists with. Google MRA..tbh. Theres plenty out there that explains it all better than I could

Ammi, sadly cervix havers and menstruators and such is very common language in todays world, where the very meaning of the word woman is apparently offensive. I do think Posie was harsh with India, but again will point out that she was not there to discuss India in the first place, its not about each single transsexual person, and its generally not about transsexual people (especially post op) at all.

I don't class loos as 'safe spaces' either tbh. Loos is just my go to area when discussing these issues because transactivists always drag it back to loos, so its a habit really. Loos is easily solved by chucking money at it, unisex would be fine as long as they are all single contained units like disabled toilets are now. Its changing rooms, refuges and prisons and such where it becomes much trickier, but we are expected to think its perfectly fine to allow any and all males into these female areas, and are bigots if we refuse or bring up potential problems.

As for Bunce, yes he is one person. But thats one woman who did not make the list that should have..all because a bloke who wears a dres 2 days a week is apparently a woman. Again, its not just one example. 2 main ones off the top of my head are the first 'female soldier' on the front line, widely hailed fantastic, but he completed his training as a man and had only started identifying as trans after being caught crossdressing. And when Sharon Maguire should have had an award for the first female director to direct a movie trilogy...the Matrix brothers kicked off. Because they had now decided they were women despite identifying as men while directing the films...so again, a woman has an achievement taken away because of men.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/1835...thats-just-one

Yes, 2 men directing films is a crack in the glass ceiling. You couldn't make it up.

[mxhunter]

Male suicide, for example, is one of many examples of real and genuine men's rights issues that I find are dismissed and rejected by self identifying feminists more often than they should be. At the same time, I've never seen a self identifying MRA who doesn't blatantly have deep issues with women and who doesn't have clear and obvious dysfunctions e.g. a lack of social skills. In this day and age I'm a bit suspicious of the motives of anyone who identifies with any of the mainstream movements. I agree with the post on the first page which says these movements need to start again.

On the trans issue I do agree with some of what Posie and Magdalen Berns on YouTube say. I think that women approached pretty close to equal rights in many ways in recent years but it's all rapidly being taken away from them again by, for example, letting men into their prisons. As a gay man I think that trans people should be able to live and love as they desire. But at the end of the day you cannot change biology and you simply cannot change your sex. Designating people born in a female body as being equal in status to men who dress in women's clothes and perhaps take hormones I think is actually kind of insulting to women in the context of their historical fight for rights.

This is a good video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k

[Livia]

An interesting read there, mxhunter.

[Maru]

@Vicky, what a wonderful post... I see others here have added some interesting material too. I will have to get through your links and think on it a bit... on first read, I do agree with you, it seems like a topic you can keep extrapolating until it is an essay... but actually, if we are quite passionate on a topic, that's to be expected imo. I don't feel like people don't read my posts because of length, so I think post more like this ... even if they scan-read, it's still very informative, and helps laypersons to see the multiple dimensions of an issue...

I think SD is a great platform for that. It does get monotonous when it's simply just "I hate XYZ... "... 3 sentences on why XYZ sucks and most is highly emotional... I like to know why people come to their conclusions... and your post in particular, seem like you are quite intuitive as well in your thought processes. Sometimes we "know" before we know, but looking at the information you presented. I can easily see why you feel so strongly on this issue.

Just in the short, because other people brought it up--on the MRA thing. Unrelated to your posts, but just my thoughts. I know you're probably talking about the more extreme variety. I don't think it is a bad thing there are men's right's activist group in general though. I'm sure the core of the moment is occupied by all sorts of loser-ish folk... just like I feel that way with the women's movement atm ... but there are men who really don't have any other outlet. So they take to things like social media, Twitter, YT and it comes out in a very unhealthy manner... "well you women this and that you did stuff"... all about the yous and the Is... something I purposefully filter out of my posts as needed, because I know they tend to be littered in posts of folk who are very irate and reactionary... and it does automatically send the reader's mood/perception of those opinions as the "you versus them" category...

I don't think this push-back towards men for having any sort of dissenting opinion at all is very healthy. Like in the US, just general people... particularly men, speaking up for issues relating to white-folk and their perception of current issues. They're automatically put into the alt-right bucket in the mainstream, and so to the average folk, is that is their "ear piece" to that side of things... they may not want to have these discussions and may automatically disregard all men on the basis of those topics. That's really not healthy for discourse in a country... and I think that's a large part of why we are where we are at, is this keenness for ignorance on issues of sex-matters.

So instead, we get the loudest of folk who speak for us instead... and let's be honest. Those people really suck at that unofficial job.

Anyway, that is why I liked to hear your view, because it's not in the mainstream... and it's something I would never hear otherwise unless I had asked. I don't think relations between the sexes is as bad as either groups would say... (MRA, Feminists, etc)... but there's decades of rust there that needs to be gotten through first before we can reopen our hearts and minds the proper way... after all, men have been told the issue was resolved and it doesn't required their input, just their compliance. Women on the other hand, do enjoy an upper-hand in the media. It's not very often at all we ever hear about men's issues... particularly with sexual violence and domestic violence. Which unfortunately I know several victims... and we never hear from trans-men either... What is up with that? Is there a stigma that hangs over that that we are unaware of?

And I don't think the media is has enough itself enough proper balance for these issues to be redressed... Anyway, my passions will always be for the children and the disabled... who really do get have it much worse than any group.

But yes, I will have to come back to your post specifically... the group analysis-es you mentioned... because I want to.

As it relates to trans, we have to admit though, that this tension between the biological sexes that has risen is playing out in a bad way for trans-folk... almost like the child *(we'll call them "Taylor")*, in a bad divorce...

"I love Taylor more and I treat them much better than you ever did!"... "But I have Taylor's best interests, and I'll be the one paying for most of it... you spoil them too much!"... etc

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yikes.





My original point was that a simple difference of a opinion doesn't itself warrant nor invite a strong backlash. As though ALL women get this treatment ALL the time.

No, on both sides of the argument, the only people getting the strong backlash are the people putting themselves forward like India and the "feminist" in the OP as the spokespeople, or the people who choose to air their strong views on public platforms and in campaigns. Because that's what always happens in those arenas, the extreme from both sides begin attacking.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

Well, I used people because it isn't just one side of the debate receiving abuse. The trans people receive the abuse for their views and campaigning too.

It's not one sided.

I don't think there are many men who speak out about the rights of women/transwomen for me to make any comparison as to their treatment.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well, I used people because it isn't just one side of the debate receiving abuse. The trans people receive the abuse for their views and campaigning too.

It's not one sided.

It really is

Its one side of the debate recieving abuse. Check out the replies under any transactivists twitter post on this topic, for example. Then contrast it with a feminists. And then contrast that with a man saying the same thing as the feminist. Seriously, everyone who thinks this is two way should do this...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I don't think there are many men who speak out about the rights of women/transwomen for me to make any comparison as to their treatment.

Luckily there are many, and more by the day as men wake up to how much of a mens rights movement transactivism is now. And to be clear, I don't mean the likes of India, who has got along quite fine and not many people would have an issue sharing womens loos and such with her as she is post op. Thats not what transactivists are fighting for, infact they call people like India 'truscum'. They are fighting for ANY MAN to have access to womens rights, basically. Which makes womens rights utterly meaningless.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Luckily there are many, and more by the day as men wake up to how much of a mens rights movement transactivism is now. And to be clear, I don't mean the likes of India, who has got along quite fine and not many people would have an issue sharing womens loos and such with her as she is post op. Thats not what transactivists are fighting for, infact they call people like India 'truscum'. They are fighting for ANY MAN to have access to womens rights, basically. Which makes womens rights utterly meaningless.

Yeah, this is the point everyone seem to be just ignoring

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

Tbh terf is literally just trans exclusionary radical fems, can be either Male or female, from what I can tell usually female tho I’ve seen men express trans exclusionary views online and get called it

A lot of feminists own this term and call themselves it too lol

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Tbh terf is literally just trans exclusionary radical fems, can be either Male or female, from what I can tell usually female tho I’ve seen men express trans exclusionary views online and get called it

A lot of feminists own this term and call themselves it too lol

Started as this, has not been this for a long time, most of the people its thrown at are not rad fems anyway. It generally does not get thrown at blokes for the same views (though Graham Lineham of Father Ted fame has been called a terf recently ), and its almost always accompanied by threats of violence.

https://terfisaslur.com/

Not been updated for a while...but gives an idea of what it means these days. Just aniother misogynistic slu7r. Also check out the cotton ceiling section. Shows how homophobic transactivists are too...even Stonewall back that.