[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by AnnieK
Religion itself doesn't cause wars or hatred....People use their interpretation as reason to commit heinous acts. "God" or whatever deity people believe in become an excuse. Most people who believe in religion do so for the right reasons but there are exceptions in all religions who will use it to justify their own actions. Religion brings peace and comfort to many.

This ^ Annie is exactly how I feel about religion,it's PEOPLE that use it as a weapon.

[user104658]

Organised religion can't be disproven but it is inherently illogical . I mean, you can believe in pretty much anything if you want, but the inability to disprove it doesn't make it realistic and I honestly can think of no valid reason for people to have to shy away from saying that. And there does come a point of unlikelihood where it is valid to say that something is, for all intents and purposes, quite clearly false. Every organised religion falls under that heading. The concept of "some form of intelligent design that is completely unlike anything we have ever described or could ever even comprehend" is an unknown. That's not the same as saying "so Christians (or whoever) might be right!". Organised religions are man-made fictions, created to attempt to understand that which hasn't yet or can't be understood, and ultimately used to control. End of story, for me.

Now... My absolute MAIN issue with organised religion, is that it's entire existence hinges on the indoctrination of children from a young age. Without that aspect, religion simply ceases to exist in any major form. Religion continues by getting into the heads of the very young before they have developed the ability to use logic and reason (adolescence) and sets itself up as a major source of, strangely enough, both comfort AND fear, and once it's embedded in a brand new mind like that, the roots run deep. It becomes part of people's entire sense of self, the world, and existence entirely. It's not something that sits well with me, at all.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Organised religion can't be disproven but it is inherently illogical . I mean, you can believe in pretty much anything if you want, but the inability to disprove it doesn't make it realistic and I honestly can think of no valid reason for people to have to shy away from saying that. And there does come a point of unlikelihood where it is valid to say that something is, for all intents and purposes, quite clearly false. Every organised religion falls under that heading. The concept of "some form of intelligent design that is completely unlike anything we have ever described or could ever even comprehend" is an unknown. That's not the same as saying "so Christians (or whoever) might be right!". Organised religions are man-made fictions, created to attempt to understand that which hasn't yet or can't be understood, and ultimately used to control. End of story, for me.

Now... My absolute MAIN issue with organised religion, is that it's entire existence hinges on the indoctrination of children from a young age. Without that aspect, religion simply ceases to exist in any major form. Religion continues by getting into the heads of the very young before they have developed the ability to use logic and reason (adolescence) and sets itself up as a major source of, strangely enough, both comfort AND fear, and once it's embedded in a brand new mind like that, the roots run deep. It becomes part of people's entire sense of self, the world, and existence entirely. It's not something that sits well with me, at all.

Excellent post.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Organised religion can't be disproven but it is inherently illogical . I mean, you can believe in pretty much anything if you want, but the inability to disprove it doesn't make it realistic and I honestly can think of no valid reason for people to have to shy away from saying that. And there does come a point of unlikelihood where it is valid to say that something is, for all intents and purposes, quite clearly false. Every organised religion falls under that heading. The concept of "some form of intelligent design that is completely unlike anything we have ever described or could ever even comprehend" is an unknown. That's not the same as saying "so Christians (or whoever) might be right!". Organised religions are man-made fictions, created to attempt to understand that which hasn't yet or can't be understood, and ultimately used to control. End of story, for me.

Now... My absolute MAIN issue with organised religion, is that it's entire existence hinges on the indoctrination of children from a young age. Without that aspect, religion simply ceases to exist in any major form. Religion continues by getting into the heads of the very young before they have developed the ability to use logic and reason (adolescence) and sets itself up as a major source of, strangely enough, both comfort AND fear, and once it's embedded in a brand new mind like that, the roots run deep. It becomes part of people's entire sense of self, the world, and existence entirely. It's not something that sits well with me, at all.

That's a very good post and I agree with you, what I fail to understand is that when others point out other dangers with regard religion on these threads why you keep bringing up colour? Can you explain that because I'd like to hear it? The treatment of women and girls, fgm, brainwashing, enforcing religious dress codes are serious elements of religious conditioning.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's a very good post and I agree with you, what I fail to understand is that when others point out other dangers with regard religion on these threads why you keep bringing up colour? Can you explain that? The treatment of women and girls, fgm, brainwashing, enforcing religious dress codes are serious elements of religious conditioning.

Another good post.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's a very good post and I agree with you, what I fail to understand is that when others point out other dangers with regard religion on these threads why you keep bringing up colour? Can you explain that because I'd like to hear it? The treatment of women and girls, fgm, brainwashing, enforcing religious dress codes are serious elements of religious conditioning.

Because the religious assumption is part of the racial stereotyping. People seem to be unaware that the vast majority of refugees fleeing from the middle east are NOT heavily religious people who "dress funny" and oppress their women in backwards ways; they are completely normal, terrified families not really any different at all to the average British family. People see "refugees from the middle east" and apparently get this image in their mind of droves of heavily religious people in robes. That is stereotyping. That is racism. The inability to understand that most of these refugees are NOT that, AT ALL.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because the religious assumption is part of the racial stereotyping. People seem to be unaware that the vast majority of refugees fleeing from the middle east are NOT heavily religious people who "dress funny" and oppress their women in backwards ways; they are completely normal, terrified families not really any different at all to the average British family. People see "refugees from the middle east" and apparently get this image in their mind of droves of heavily religious people in robes. That is stereotyping. That is racism. The inability to understand that most of these refugees are NOT that, AT ALL.

I am unclear then why you think that discussing religion or islam is automatically discussing migrants? And are you saying when you discuss religion it's not stereotyping but when others do it is? I don't think I've ever discussed migrants or their plight with you but in many discussions where we've been talking about religion and religious uniform you've brought up colour. I'm not trying to cause discord since that seems a frequent assumption, so if you want to discuss it in private message I'm up for it.Say the word.

[Kizzy]

Cultural conditioning, not religious.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Cultural conditioning, not religious.

Religion is used / abused in the process of cultural conditioning (more than ANY other method), there's little point in denying that.

A mind that is set up from birth to accept conditioning (religion) will be easier to manipulate for life. It creates a resistance to logic.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Cultural conditioning, not religious.

Of course its religious. Culture and religion are entwined.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Of course its religious. Culture and religion are entwined.

Not only that a lot of it is doctrine interpretation s of the religious writings of that faith.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Not only that a lot of it is doctrine interpretation s of the religious writings of that faith.

Female modesty for instance. It's all closely linked and instilled from birth. That way it ensures least resistance. Just a sexist ploy to control women and be top dog. Primitive rubbish in my opinion.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Female modesty for instance. It's all closely linked and instilled from birth. That way it ensures least resistance. Just a sexist ploy to control women and be top dog. Primitive rubbish in my opinion.

Patriarchal socialisation.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Of course its religious. Culture and religion are entwined.

There are cultural norms and there are religious norms, They are separate two people of two differing faiths can exhibit the same cultural norms.

[Kizzy]

The best explanation I've heard is that the stories are all metaphors and never intended to be taken literally the resurrection could be simply people remembering his teachings and therefore he is 'reborn', If people remember you are you ever truly dead?

Not that I do religion...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The best explanation I've heard is that the stories are all metaphors and never intended to be taken literally the resurrection could be simply people remembering his teachings and therefore he is 'reborn', If people remember you are you ever truly dead?

Not that I do religion...

I believe a lot of the bible is metaphorical

[user104658]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I believe a lot of the bible is metaphorical

The thing is, though, interpretations of the bible that consider it to be metaphorical and allegorical are not part of any major organised religion... so the original intention of bible stories when written are largely irrelevant to the legitimacy of modern organised religion. I mean, really the best you can say is that if the original authors were to time travel to the present, they'd be like "Oh **** people actually took our morality tales literally?? LOL wups!"

I guess like... Tolkien and JK Rowling travelling 2000 years into the future and finding people fighting over who was the true great savior; Frodo Baggins or Harry Potter.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, though, interpretations of the bible that consider it to be metaphorical and allegorical are not part of any major organised religion... so the original intention of bible stories when written are largely irrelevant to the legitimacy of modern organised religion. I mean, really the best you can say is that if the original authors were to time travel to the present, they'd be like "Oh **** people actually took our morality tales literally?? LOL wups!"

I guess like... Tolkien and JK Rowling travelling 2000 years into the future and finding people fighting over who was the true great savior; Frodo Baggins or Harry Potter.

Hehe, well that's one way of looking at it.

The way I look at it is; to bring together and have an obedient mass of people, they needed universal teaching. Religions writing gave people a moral compass/signpost between right and wrong. Just as May makes the masses believe that they are looking out for their people, the bible had the masses believing in good versus evil. For me, the bible or any religion is just like politics... its all about mind control.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, though, interpretations of the bible that consider it to be metaphorical and allegorical are not part of any major organised religion... so the original intention of bible stories when written are largely irrelevant to the legitimacy of modern organised religion. I mean, really the best you can say is that if the original authors were to time travel to the present, they'd be like "Oh **** people actually took our morality tales literally?? LOL wups!"

I guess like... Tolkien and JK Rowling travelling 2000 years into the future and finding people fighting over who was the true great savior; Frodo Baggins or Harry Potter.

Are you suggesting that the bible (old testament) that was written by a group of poets, was bastardized at a later date to form a very deliberate organized religion ?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The best explanation I've heard is that the stories are all metaphors and never intended to be taken literally the resurrection could be simply people remembering his teachings and therefore he is 'reborn', If people remember you are you ever truly dead?

Not that I do religion...

I agree with this, our priest at Christmas touched on this as well, that 25th Dec is just a symbolic date etc..he is an incredibly intelligent man, I should go more often as he gives very thought provoking sermons, I don't know why non religious folk are so desperate to prove this and that, some people believe in ghosts, live and let live for goodness sake

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I agree with this, our priest at Christmas touched on this as well, that 25th Dec is just a symbolic date etc..he is an incredibly intelligent man, I should go more often as he gives very thought provoking sermons, I don't know why non religious folk are so desperate to prove this and that, some people believe in ghosts, live and let live for goodness sake

Don't you mean religious folk are desperate to prove this and that to make sense of their particular dogma?....
So what if some people believe i ghosts, hows that any different from believing in angels?

live and let live is basically what believers with no specific religion do isn't it?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Don't you mean religious folk are desperate to prove this and that to make sense of their particular dogma?....
So what if some people believe i ghosts, hows that any different from believing in angels?

live and let live is basically what believers with no specific religion do isn't it?

You mad cow I was making the same point as you re ghosts, the only ones on this thread insulting others are non believers so not sure where your first comment is coming from

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You mad cow I was making the same point as you re ghosts, the only ones on this thread insulting others are non believers so not sure where your first comment is coming from

That wasn't clear tbf

[Kazanne]

Well I believe in God and am not ashamed of it in any way neither should I be,I agree with Cherie,people believe what they want,they dont need opinions shoving down their throats,that is what causes the grief people thinking they know the truth and forcing it on others.

[Northern Monkey]

I'm reading the the Bible now.I'm not religious.I just find it fecking fascinating.If you're into history and how people thought thousands of years ago i think it's a great read.Specially the Old Testament.Yes it's just stories but many of the places are real.It's also great if you're into ancient Egypt.This was written in the time of the New Kingdom.Bare in mind that Egypt and the pyramids etc etc were all ancient by then.Infact more time had passed from the pyramids being built than from the creation of the bible to now.Even though the characters were probably made up it gives you an insight into how people viewed Egypt all those years ago.