[Ammi]

Originally Posted by smudgie

It’s just so good to see you back, beggar the paragraphs.x

...hawwww.....it’s good to see your lovely face as well, Smudgie...

[Redway]

It’s all rooted in white male privilege. Pisses me off.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Redway

It’s all rooted in white male privilege. Pisses me off.

That'll be it then. Case closed.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...you’ve branched my thoughts out quite a bit though I have to say...you mention ‘adult discussions’...?...and then of some negative personal things which have been said to you because of personal information disclosed..(..I’m so sorry to hear that...)...the internet is a strange place in that when we do disclose about ourselves in the way of explaining etc or for other reasons or just giving out personal information etc...we’re not only disclosing to our closest friends...(..which is what we have a tendency to do in real life...)...we’re disclosing to strangers essentially and also ‘our closest enemies’...(...and most of us have those..)..also obviously to people who can become generally irritated by our opinions on any given day...anyways...

I suppose that's true, though for me personally the reason I don't disclose too much / prefer to stay anonymous is that my wife is now quite politically active "in the real world" and increasingly so, to the extent that I actually have to be sort of careful with any personal or political opinions that I share "openly" or at least that they're well thought through and carefully worded... which isn't always how TiBB threads go .

For the rest of it, I actually don't mind / sort of enjoy when people lose their cool and get personal . If someone has to attack arbitrary things about you, it's generally because they're struggling to find any way to attack the argument you were trying to make, which means the logic must be solid... so sort of a validation, really.

...let’s move on to ‘mansplaining’...because I have to ‘disclose’......that’s a word I haven’t heard before so you had me googling...that then led me to reading a few articles..and to cut it short a little, one article stated that ‘label’ derived from a feminist author...who at a party, had a man explain to her the meaning of her last book...so she had coined the mansplain thing ..so rather than think..oh, that’s interesting to have a male perspective which is a positive thing..she had felt it a negative and completely dismissed an ‘opinion’ by putting a label on it...You’re a man/I’m a woman/you explain and capture my attention/I explain etc and we both absorb and listen, isn’t that the way it all goes down..and ooops, along came a label called mansplaining...which is just quite bizarre...

That's my main problem with it though, that it's so dismissive. Even if someone feels like something is being "manplained" inaccurately, that can still prompt dialogue. It completely over-rides context, ignores content, no opportunity for any discussion that might lead to interesting conclusions... if someone just shouts "Oh geez thanks for mansplaining!!" and expects there to be nothing more to say, how does that help anyone? But it's not that someone thinks I'm incorrect that bothers me, it's the shutting down of any opportunity to discuss why, with sweeping reasons.

In the same way, like I said above, I think it's totally wrong for anyone to reply to something and just say "That's racism! You are racist! Nothing more to say!". Though I do think that's different from just simply using the word "racism" in the context of a full post discussing the exact reasons that you think something isn't right.

I’m assuming that you didn’t feel the mansplain label type thing being something that you are and indeed an incorrect perception of you and I’m assuming that you felt quite negatively about it being attached to you...maybe being attached because of how you post, the things you post about etc...?...all of this is just assumptions for the sake of the discussion as it were...but is that not the same thing or a similar thing to attaching any ‘ist’ label...in that we don’t really know a person from their opinions and how they express those opinions in internet land in the same way we would know a person in real life and more where their opinions And beliefs derive from...I mean, yes we can only go by someone’s words that are typed, so we’re all entitled to ‘label’ with those words...but does that labelling actually progress anything in the discussion for either ‘side’...is it helpful in any way or is it hindering...like the feminist author I guess, she closed her ears from a perspective that had validity and just went in with that mansplaining thing in dismissal...hmmm, I’m not sure I’m completely on board with the thought process of ..if an ‘ism’ is accused of you, then it’s your responsibility to disprove, either...just because in that disproving or explaining as it were, that person might have to disclose something personal about themselves..maybe a childhood environment that has instilled or specific life experiences...which, then makes me think about what you have said about personal stuff and how it can be ‘used to hurt’...

I guess just to go back to the above - and I know this may not be true for everyone - but it's very rare that if I point something out as racism it's with the intent of it being a personal attack or label, it's just that sometimes it feels like skirting around the issue without actually saying it. I'm also never trying to shut down the discussion when doing it and it's totally open to a back-and-forth and elaboration. Usually. I can admit to having off days when I'm just sick of it; though I guess the thing to do in those situations is just not to post at all. It's a work in progress

just the last thing to say really is that you ‘mansplain’ so well and so thoughtfully, TS.. that you often get my thoughts running off in many directions...(...the tricky bit is getting them all back together again to concentrate focus...)...

Awwwh, thanks . Like I said I think it's a work in progress, I have good days and bad days . The second part there about thoughts running off, I definitely get that, it's happening in my head too and I think I must be one of the worst offenders for derailing threads .

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I suppose that's true, though for me personally the reason I don't disclose too much / prefer to stay anonymous is that my wife is now quite politically active "in the real world" and increasingly so, to the extent that I actually have to be sort of careful with any personal or political opinions that I share "openly" or at least that they're well thought through and carefully worded... which isn't always how TiBB threads go .

For the rest of it, I actually don't mind / sort of enjoy when people lose their cool and get personal . If someone has to attack arbitrary things about you, it's generally because they're struggling to find any way to attack the argument you were trying to make, which means the logic must be solid... so sort of a validation, really.


That's my main problem with it though, that it's so dismissive. Even if someone feels like something is being "manplained" inaccurately, that can still prompt dialogue. It completely over-rides context, ignores content, no opportunity for any discussion that might lead to interesting conclusions... if someone just shouts "Oh geez thanks for mansplaining!!" and expects there to be nothing more to say, how does that help anyone? But it's not that someone thinks I'm incorrect that bothers me, it's the shutting down of any opportunity to discuss why, with sweeping reasons.

In the same way, like I said above, I think it's totally wrong for anyone to reply to something and just say "That's racism! You are racist! Nothing more to say!". Though I do think that's different from just simply using the word "racism" in the context of a full post discussing the exact reasons that you think something isn't right.



I guess just to go back to the above - and I know this may not be true for everyone - but it's very rare that if I point something out as racism it's with the intent of it being a personal attack or label, it's just that sometimes it feels like skirting around the issue without actually saying it. I'm also never trying to shut down the discussion when doing it and it's totally open to a back-and-forth and elaboration. Usually. I can admit to having off days when I'm just sick of it; though I guess the thing to do in those situations is just not to post at all. It's a work in progress



Awwwh, thanks . Like I said I think it's a work in progress, I have good days and bad days . The second part there about thoughts running off, I definitely get that, it's happening in my head too and I think I must be one of the worst offenders for derailing threads .

...see I don’t see derailing as an offence at all...some of the best and most interesting discussions come from the derailments and not from the track...otherwise without them, we’d only be repeating ourselves over and over and over and fixed in one place within a few topics......your ‘offence’ is actually one of your strengths and a great thing I think...

[DemolitionRed]

The thing is, nobody is really listening when its a subject we feel strongly about. It would take something quite radical to change my view of Muslims and immigrants so when I read Muslims (as a whole) being demonized, I'm going to strongly voice my opinion right back at that person. Who else can I voice it to? If people think that's cruel, perhaps they covertly agree with what that person said or perhaps its because they consider themselves a friend.
That's why I don't have friends on here, regardless of who is on my friends list. I just consider them like minded faceless posters. If I considered them friends, I may allow myself to be influenced because friendship has personal power.

To be racist or overly judgmental, you need confidence. There's a chance of getting lynched for saying the wrong thing in the wrong forum group but if you know you have back up, even if its not directly on that thread or that topic, you know if you get verbally destroyed by opposing opinions you can always reach for the victim card.

Anyone who gets butt hurt on a forum should consider doing something else with their time. If people can dish out resentment and hatred towards whole societies but then take it personally when someone calls them out, they need to stand up and fight their own corner.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The thing is, nobody is really listening when its a subject we feel strongly about. It would take something quite radical to change my view of Muslims and immigrants so when I read Muslims (as a whole) being demonized, I'm going to strongly voice my opinion right back at that person. Who else can I voice it to? If people think that's cruel, perhaps they covertly agree with what that person said or perhaps its because they consider themselves a friend.
That's why I don't have friends on here, regardless of who is on my friends list. I just consider them like minded faceless posters. If I considered them friends, I may allow myself to be influenced because friendship has personal power.

To be racist or overly judgmental, you need confidence. There's a chance of getting lynched for saying the wrong thing in the wrong forum group but if you know you have back up, even if its not directly on that thread or that topic, you know if you get verbally destroyed by opposing opinions you can always reach for the victim card.

Anyone who gets butt hurt on a forum should consider doing something else with their time. If people can dish out resentment and hatred towards whole societies but then take it personally when someone calls them out, they need to stand up and fight their own corner.

..if we don’t listen though, no matter how strongly we feel..then we’ve just closed our worlds down a bit by not leaving that mind open....?..just reached the end of something and closed it all off..made it all stagnant in our thought processes...

...so far as immigration is concerned for instance, I’ve listened to some very valid and thought provoking reasons why more control is felt to be needed and even why in some cases it may be opposed to completely...that may not have changed my feelings or stance as such in general...but it does prevent my thoughts just staying with their comfort zone of not branching out if that makes sense...and I guess that I’m just not on board with attaching a label on others when it’s essentially a label that’s being opposed or objected to ...yes, we are entitled to but does it hinder by doing, type thing...just to add that I don’t covertly agree, neither do I have my thoughts based on friendships...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..if we don’t listen though, no matter how strongly we feel..then we’ve just closed our worlds down a bit by not leaving that mind open....?..just reached the end of something and closed it all off..made it all stagnant in our thought processes...

That depends on what we are supposed to be listening to. There's a lot of ignorance surrounding immigration (just an example) and so if I read something that I know to be incorrect, I'll attempt but usually fail to correct their knowledge. What I'm not going to do is listen to them blindly continuing with that rant because its worthless. If, on the other hand, someone rants about something I have little knowledge about I may go off and do my own research on that subject, if I'm interested. If not, then I don't join the topic.

...so far as immigration is concerned for instance, I’ve listened to some very valid and thought provoking reasons why more control is felt to be needed and even why in some cases it may be opposed to completely...that may not have changed my feelings or stance as such in general...but it does prevent my thoughts just staying with their comfort zone of not branching out if that makes sense...and I guess that I’m just not on board with attaching a label on others when it’s essentially a label that’s being opposed or objected to ...yes, we are entitled to but does it hinder by doing, type thing...just to add that I don’t covertly agree, neither do I have my thoughts based on friendships...

I would never say the curbing of immigration isn't needed but all immigrants need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. I understand the huge good immigration brings to this country and I'm aware of the negative consequences of allowing certain types in but a few bad apples shouldn't ruin the whole pick.

As for the reasons for protection, all I know is, I don't worry for a second about the people who are openly aggressive about 'people types' because whilst you may not understand their dislike, you absolutely know how they feel about certain issues. The people who never really join in such topics other than to attempt to protect the hater are the people I'm guarded about.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The thing is, nobody is really listening when its a subject we feel strongly about. It would take something quite radical to change my view of Muslims and immigrants so when I read Muslims (as a whole) being demonized, I'm going to strongly voice my opinion right back at that person. Who else can I voice it to? If people think that's cruel, perhaps they covertly agree with what that person said or perhaps its because they consider themselves a friend.
That's why I don't have friends on here, regardless of who is on my friends list. I just consider them like minded faceless posters. If I considered them friends, I may allow myself to be influenced because friendship has personal power.

To be racist or overly judgmental, you need confidence. There's a chance of getting lynched for saying the wrong thing in the wrong forum group but if you know you have back up, even if its not directly on that thread or that topic, you know if you get verbally destroyed by opposing opinions you can always reach for the victim card.

Anyone who gets butt hurt on a forum should consider doing something else with their time. If people can dish out resentment and hatred towards whole societies but then take it personally when someone calls them out, they need to stand up and fight their own corner.

THe arrogance of that post is as expected. Some people believe they are always right and always know best. They put themselves on a pedal stool as someone who defends others against all the vile hateful racists. Differing opinions are hateful and people expressing such ‘hate’ should be shut-down because such hateful opinions don’t sit well with them.

Calling people out on their shut-down tactics is not playing the victim card, but of course that is how some will interpret it because it fits with their attempt to undermine that person. Who exactly is butt hurt - you sound like that to me. I have read some of your blogs whining about how you were not going to waste your precious time on a site that doesn’t debate or express opinions in the way you say they should. Some people just insist on seeing themselves as morally and intellectually superior and believe that gives them the right to belittle others.

If such people think all these hateful people should look at themselves and analyize their behaviour they would be doing everyone a favour if they could practice what they preach.

[DemolitionRed]

I know certain people will recognize themselves in what I said and they will probably react as expected.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I know certain people will recognize themselves in what I said and they will probably react as expected.

I know certain people will always see what they want to see.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I know certain people will recognize themselves in what I said and they will probably react as expected.

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I know certain people will always see what they want to see.

I know da wei

[Withano]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The thing is, nobody is really listening when its a subject we feel strongly about. It would take something quite radical to change my view of Muslims and immigrants so when I read Muslims (as a whole) being demonized, I'm going to strongly voice my opinion right back at that person. Who else can I voice it to? If people think that's cruel, perhaps they covertly agree with what that person said or perhaps its because they consider themselves a friend.
That's why I don't have friends on here, regardless of who is on my friends list. I just consider them like minded faceless posters. If I considered them friends, I may allow myself to be influenced because friendship has personal power.

To be racist or overly judgmental, you need confidence. There's a chance of getting lynched for saying the wrong thing in the wrong forum group but if you know you have back up, even if its not directly on that thread or that topic, you know if you get verbally destroyed by opposing opinions you can always reach for the victim card.

Anyone who gets butt hurt on a forum should consider doing something else with their time. If people can dish out resentment and hatred towards whole societies but then take it personally when someone calls them out, they need to stand up and fight their own corner.

I wasn't necessarily talking about -on tibb-, I'd like to think that forum members definitely are not entitled to racism/homophobia/sexism etc on tibb. Cos like nobody wants to read that ****.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I know certain people will always see what they want to see.

Yeh, this one mate of mine doesnt see fault in themselves at all, actually when they are given a discriptor of their language they claim its because others have an agenda or some nonsense, and that the discriptor others use to describe them is nothing to do with their language. Its weird, but I guess you're right. My mate will just see what they want to see, and my mate doesnt wanna see fault in their own actions.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh, this one mate of mine doesnt see fault in themselves at all, actually when they are given a discriptor of their language they claim its because others have an agenda or some nonsense, and that the discriptor others use to describe them is nothing to do with their language. Its weird, but I guess you're right. My mate will just see what they want to see, and my mate doesnt wanna see fault in their own actions.

Ditto. There are those who get a rather unsavoury rep for shall we say shadowing but still see no fault in themselves. Not going there with you yet again. My ignore button needs some exercise.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Alf

That'll be it then. Case closed.

?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Redway

?

What's your question?

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Alf

What's your question?

What do you mean case closed?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Redway

What do you mean case closed?

I was being sarcastic to your post which said "it's all rooted in White male privilege"

As a White male, you purpously discriminated against me, but instead of being a crying victim about it, I'll come back at you with sarcasm instead.

[Withano]

Does suggesting that white males have privilege count as discrimination? Seems like the opposite.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Withano

Does suggesting that white males have privilege count as discrimination? Seems like the opposite.

Don't take away my victimhood, as a White straight man, that's all I have to be a victim. I just want to be equal with all the other victims

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Alf

Don't take away my victimhood, as a White straight man, that's all I have to be a victim. I just want to be equal with all the other victims

I can relate to this on a personal level.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Does suggesting that white males have privilege count as discrimination? Seems like the opposite.

Sounds like a massive chip on ones shoulder to me.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Sounds like a massive chip on ones shoulder to me.

It’s true though.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Alf

I was being sarcastic to your post which said "it's all rooted in White male privilege"

As a White male, you purpously discriminated against me, but instead of being a crying victim about it, I'll come back at you with sarcasm instead.

Who told you I’m Caucasian?