[Z]

It's Iraq 2003 all over again. I wish we'd stop meddling abroad, we're as much the cause of the problem as we are the """"cure"""" for it, in my opinion. Ugh. It's a mess, the whole region.

[MTVN]

I'm not convinced we know what we're getting ourselves in for, and I'm not convinced that air strikes will really have any major impact apart from committing us to the conflict for years, we shouldn't think that IS can be bombed out of existance

We're told this will be different to 2003 but it's hard to forget that every Western military intervention since the turn of the century has resulted in chaos. Libya is the most recent example.

[Z]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm not convinced we know what we're getting ourselves in for, and I'm not convinced that air strikes will really have any major impact apart from committing us to the conflict for years, we shouldn't think that IS can be bombed out of existance

We're told this will be different to 2003 but it's hard to forget that every Western military intervention since the turn of the century has resulted in chaos. Libya is the most recent example.

Exactly. No army can stop an idea.

[arista]

524 voted for the War
just 43 said no

Off we go to Air Bombing


http://news.sky.com/story/1342811/mp...trikes-in-iraq

[Kizzy]

Called it...

[arista]

Yes Gulf War 3


And "Possible"
Isil backed bombs going off in London
or Manchester or Glasgow

[arista]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm not convinced we know what we're getting ourselves in for, and I'm not convinced that air strikes will really have any major impact apart from committing us to the conflict for years, we shouldn't think that IS can be bombed out of existance

We're told this will be different to 2003 but it's hard to forget that every Western military intervention since the turn of the century has resulted in chaos. Libya is the most recent example.

Yes but this is a 5 or 10 year mission
No USA or UK fighting troops on the ground "new rules."


So other local nations will start a force up
of killers that will try to kill all Isil.




Libya was a Rush Job
nothing like this



Its not likely
that Isil can shoot down any Air Force planes
yet

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

and they are all doing it in the name of their particular made up deity

perhaps if we could teach them there are no gods instead of bombing them they all might evolve quicker

This has absolutely nothing to do with God - no matter who or what you perceive him to be. This is exclusively about evil men.

From the dawn of mankind, humans have killed and maimed each other. It is in man to do so instinctively. Man is the only beast on Earth who slaughters for fun and sport, and derives pleasure from barbaric cruelty.

Nothing changes with - so called -'evolution', only the manner of killing. Flint axes became wooden clubs, became swords, became guns, became nuclear warheads.

We all have good and evil within us and a quality called 'free will', and the majority of Christians or Muslims or Jews would not willingly commit the barbaric atrocities which these evil fundamentalist terrorists so readily delight in perpetrating under the pretence of a 'Holy War. Whilst these bastards are waging their phoney war in the name of Allah, hundreds of thousands of ordinary, civilised Muslims are knelt in mosques all over the world praying for an end to the atrocities.

It was much the same with the vast majority of ordinary Roman Catholics during the decades of atrocities and cowardly indiscriminate bombings committed by the IRA - supposedly - in the name of God.

God has nothing to do with it, and it is not a Holy War. It is a war waged by purely evil madmen who instinctively have the urge to murder, and the desire to inflict pain and suffering. These are monsters who have been provided an excuse by the West which they believe justifies their 'war' and vindicates their acts of abhorrent inhumanity to fellow man.

Evil men gravitate to other evil men and to evil causes. Do not blame God. It is man - the human beast - not God.

The billions in God's 'armies' are harmless, decent, civilised human beings who can be found knelt worshipping in Churches, Chapels, Mosques and Synagogues, not killing, maiming and beheading innocent people.

When this thin veneer of 'civilisation' has eroded, or when man is beyond the the fragile framework of laws which confine him, the majority of us remain 'human'. There are things we still would not do, even were there no longer any laws to prevent us doing them.

Yet, there are men who have done the most inhuman and bestial of acts to other humans just because they could; The ordinary Roman soldier in Judea, once 'ordinary' German men who became Nazis, once 'ordinary' Romanians who served under Ceausescu, the list is endless, and these men seized their opportunity to do what they did, because they were intrinsically and instinctively evil. Despite Lord Acton's adage that “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely etc", a man has to be evil to commit the acts of evil we are addressing here.

Like the secret paedophiles who secure employment in childrens' homes, or the lesbians who become officers in womens' prisons, evil men huddle under the banner which will best afford them the opportunity to satisfy their bestial desires.

They do not need 'educating that their is no God'. This war is not about God, and what is more; they do not believe in God - if they did, then no amount of 'conditioning' could turn them into the depraved hate-filled butchers they are.

Further; what is your view on the thousands of senseless wars which were not fought in 'God's name'?

And it is not just in wars where the 'evil that men do' is occurring with sickening regularity.

Imagine you are looking through a special 35mm film camera; you start 'Medium Close' in one of those little boxes we call houses; watch as the drunken husband drags his screaming wife around by her hair, punches her in the head, kicks her in the stomach. 'Cut' to that little bungalow - there in the bedroom, where that 'burglar' is beating the 85 year old retired midwife black and blue having already robbed her of the few possessions which she had. This beating is just for fun - a kind of perk of the job, 'Pull Back' to the street outside a Nightclub; there; where the two yobs are kicking the 17 year old students head in. 'Cut' to that dark alleyway as the two hooded thugs are beating the innocent 58 year old Church organist to death with baseball bats. Get the idea? All evil, senseless and sickening, and not one of God's banners in sight.

I am neither deluded, brain-washed nor crazy, but I believe in God. I believe in God because of something which I experienced - something which changed me and my life. Despite my 'epiphany', I do not, however, believe in the Church. The Church - like Government and Local Government, the Judiciary, and every other institution in this world - is run by man. Man - with all his frailties and flaws, his corruption and prejudices, and hypocrisy.

I think that you mistake Man's doing for God's.

Incidentally, I believe that it takes a greater 'Leap of Faith' not to believe in God than to believe in him.

[JoshBB]

Oh for gods sake. I've lost so much respect for lib/lab/con. 524-43 (83% ayes) is ridiculous.

[arista]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Oh for gods sake. I've lost so much respect for lib/lab/con. 524-43 (83% ayes) is ridiculous.

Its Terrorists that Cut Heads off - then posts them online
Josh


You want them to carry on Killing
British Workers?

And murdering all that do not join them in the Middle East

[joeysteele]

Not usually me this at all as to any vote as to further conflict for UK armed forces.

However I applaud all the Party leaders for coming together on this one and carrying in the main their MPs with them too.

Sadly,it is something that will likely escalate and we will probably get involved in other areas too than just Iraq, however for me, any action that will clear these 'things' off the face of the Earth for good is now fine by me I am afraid.

Really impressive and good opening speech on the matter from the PM David Cameron, he laid it all out really well and effectively, a superb responding speech from Ed Miliband too, raising really good points as to the conditions this action will be taken and also to be fair, a really good closing speech from Nick Clegg too, which summed up things near perfectly.

Not for the issue as to going into conflict somewhere again but how refreshing and mature it was to watch this whole debate, from all the Parties near all the time all through the debate, working together in a common aim.

This action by the Govt and now Parliament too has my total support.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Oh for gods sake. I've lost so much respect for lib/lab/con. 524-43 (83% ayes) is ridiculous.

so you think we should sit back and do nothing, while innocent people are being beheaded, women are raped and children are tortured and taught to kill? what do you think we should do?

[arista]

[Bombing against Isis to start in hours as MPs back new Iraq war
Conflict meets little Commons resistance, as prime minister David Cameron claims ‘this will not be shock and awe’]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-david-cameron

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Not usually me this at all as to any vote as to further conflict for UK armed forces.

However I applaud all the Party leaders for coming together on this one and carrying in the main their MPs with them too.

Sadly,it is something that will likely escalate and we will probably get involved in other areas too than just Iraq, however for me, any action that will clear these 'things' off the face of the Earth for good is now fine by me I am afraid.

Really impressive and good opening speech on the matter from the PM David Cameron, he laid it all out really well and effectively, a superb responding speech from Ed Miliband too, raising really good points as to the conditions this action will be taken and also to be fair, a really good closing speech from Nick Clegg too, which summed up things near perfectly.

Not for the issue as to going into conflict somewhere again but how refreshing and mature it was to watch this whole debate, from all the Parties near all the time all through the debate, working together in a common aim.

This action by the Govt and now Parliament too has my total support.

beautiful post...

hopefully this is the last time for a long time, that we have to deal with people like this. lets just hope these air strikes do their job.

[arista]

[MTVN]

Good article in the Independent yesterday about how complicated a situation it is, goes into a lot more detail than what I've copied but it's good at detailing why we should be cautious with our air strikes: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...3-9756567.html

It is important to stress that there is little sign that US air strikes in Iraq, which Britain is planning to supplement, will be able to turn the tide against Isis. There have been 194 US air strikes in Iraq since 8 August but the militants are still advancing six weeks after the first bombs and missiles exploded.

...

Many Sunni in Mosul and Raqqa, Isis’s Syrian capital, do not like Isis. They are alienated by its violence and primaeval social norms such as treating women as chattels. But they are even more frightened of resurgent Iraqi or Syrian armies accompanied by murderous pro-government militias subduing their areas with the assistance of allied air strikes. The Sunni will have no option but to fight or flee.

...

In fact, the belief system of Isis is little different from Wahhabism, the variant of Islam prevalent in Saudi Arabia. Supported by Saudi wealth, Wahhabism has gained an ever-increasing influence over mainstream Sunni Islam in the last 50 years. Politicians like Mr Cameron are much happier condemning school governors in Birmingham for religious extremism than they are complaining to the Saudi ambassador in London about the virulent sectarianism of Saudi school books.

The US and British alliance with Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain and Jordan – all Sunni monarchies – creates other problems. It is hypocritical for Mr Cameron to pretend that US and UK intervention are in support of democratic, accountable and inclusive governments when he is in a coalition with the last theocratic absolute monarchies on earth

[billy123]

Originally Posted by bobnot

There is a fair bit of evidence to suggest that the entire uprising against Assad was deliberately caused by agitators paid for/sent by the west in the first place

The result being a bunch of militants ending up with with more weapons than they could ever use paid for and supplied by western leaders. They knew it wouldnt end at the borders of Syria. They knew they were Arming a group of people that wouldnt stop at attacking Assad so now they are sweeping into Iraq while Obama and cameron sit at their desks waiting for the public outcry to send forces to Iraq to chase them out.

Western Forces will intervene and Force them to retreat back into Syria where the west will launch Airstrikes in Syria just like they wanted in the first place.

If I was Iran i would be pretty worried about now as they are most likely the next target once an angle can be found to justify attacking them as well it will happen and that will be the entire middle east in chaos/ruins with the exception of the Americans beloved Israel and Saudi Arabia.

The whole thing is a sickening charade.
The Arms trade is the biggest money machine going.
Selling things that murder people is the biggest money earner available to the point that the worlds economy relies on it.
The barefaced lies that our leaders tell us just to keep the war machine rolling makes me sick to the stomach.
-------
Well thats todays rant done.

Posted on the 22nd of June.
Such a predictable and intended sequence of events that it is embarrassing to watch the much awaited public outcry. Why were people not bothered when militants were armed by the west These are the same people that now have a catchy name in the media ISIS,IS or whatever your preferred media outlet is branding them as at the moment.

Its like feeding time at the Muppet sanctuary watching these reasons for war being created.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

I agree that ISIS (I hate even given them capital letters) should be bombed into oblivion - they are evil personified and everybody agrees on that. But should we be getting soooo involved? Yes, to a point, to stop this animals from growing (although I dare say there are other vile groups ready to take their place) and No because there is that fear of another 7/7 here in UK. What I really really fail to understand is why the very rich countries like UAE, Saudia Aribia, Jordon, Oman, Kuwait etc are not doing the bombings and eradicating the evil amongst them. Saudi Arabia has 700 jet fighters (many bought from western countries) and we have six on the island of Cyprus. I am sure I have heard it said somewhere that the third world war will start in the middle east and it does seem as if the foundations have already started. God help us all, even more so God help all those innocent men, women and children (including frail and old) who have become refugees, Where does it all end? or does it end?

[arista]

Of course Turkey is part of Nato
but as a Muslim nation they do not want to fight
they have to many people
dumped in their nation
avoiding Isil.

[Northern Monkey]

Imo,We have to do something in order to not look weak,There are British hostages over there,The US are already taking action,Britain is looking weaker on the world stage as it is with all our defence cuts.We can't sit back and give out the impression that it's ok to capture our citizens and behead them,Not forgetting the fact that a proportion of these IS terrorists are British citizens,We have a duty to atleast in part clear up this mess.

[Brother Leon]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Posted on the 22nd of June.
Such a predictable and intended sequence of events that it is embarrassing to watch the much awaited public outcry. Why were people not bothered when militants were armed by the west These are the same people that now have a catchy name in the media ISIS,IS or whatever your preferred media outlet is branding them as at the moment.

Its like feeding time at the Muppet sanctuary watching these reasons for war being created.

Preach.


It took them targeting the western world for all of a sudden the issue to become a problem. It didn't matter what they were doing before hand as they were just doing the dirty work for The UK and US.

[arista]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Imo,We have to do something in order to not look weak,There are British hostages over there,The US are already taking action,Britain is looking weaker on the world stage as it is with all our defence cuts.We can't sit back and give out the impression that it's ok to capture our citizens and behead them,Not forgetting the fact that a proportion of these IS terrorists are British citizens,We have a duty to atleast in part clear up this mess.

Yes we have 6 planes
with small bombs
so we are not killing more innocents.


Like the USA Air Force do

[arista]

So far Our Jets have not attacked
anything
just burning fuel.

The Iraq PMs
General is directing any attacks
to stop innocents getting murdered.


Some Iraqi Troops were killed
in error
not by the UK.

[arista]

['They said it could never happen and now it almost has': ISIS militants fighting Iraqi government
forces 'just one mile from Baghdad' despite Western airstrikes against the terror group

Fierce clashes between jihadists and government forces near Iraqi capital
Militants understood to be attempting to enter and seize control of Baghdad
Reports of militants' proximity to Baghdad came from Canon Andrew White
He is vicar of the city's St George's Church - Iraq's only Anglican church
News comes despite ongoing Western airstrikes against ISIS targets in Iraq]


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3EhG2LAFM

[arista]

[British hostage John Cantlie forced to criticise Obama's
'disappointingly predictable' strategy on ISIS and warns
Western weapons will end up in jihadists' hands in shocking video

British ISIS hostage John Cantlie has appeared in new video shot by group
Propaganda footage shows him criticising Obama's military strategy
Criticises Iraqi army and says Free Syrian Army are corrupt and ineffective ]


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3EoOl1nhD