[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Screaming are you even reading my posts, all these articles say is that Spain doesn't want Scotland to remain in the EU IF ITS STILL IN THE UK, not if it's independent.

Try reading it again slowly with Mr finger?

He stated he was extremely against taking Scotland as an independent party.

Spain won't recognise an independent Scotland with the EU ever, it has its own region who want independence that it will not give. They will only recognise it as part of the UK.

[Greg!]

"Extremely against Scottish independence" didn't say Spain would veto it (not that they'd even have a veto as Scotland has been in the Eu for years

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

To be honest Kizzy - What you write above flies in the face of your many, many, complaints about this country on numerous threads.

[lily.]

Originally Posted by James

Are they going to have one every two years until they get result they want, then?

This.

I do not want another one. This place was a nightmare last time.

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by lily.

This.

I do not want another one. This place was a nightmare last time.

"Right guys the right to self determination is cancelled because thisisbigbrother.com will get a lil messy"

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Nowhere, at any time, did I say that you couldn't have an opinion, that is an overly sensitive fabrication of your own. That is even part of my point, that luxury to have and express an opinion is one of the fortunate things you have because you are British.

If you understand nothing about the EU and our history within it then how can you so desperately find it a force for good? Scotland leaving our union may be hypothetical but how they can do it viably and financially is all part of the discussion and debate or are you implying that we can only discuss the subject on your terms?

I don't understand anyone who says what is the point of protesting. It's a right of your freedom and by protesting, lobbying, voting, engaging in politics you can be a force for change. That doesn't mean everything is going to go your way but you can be part of the process. Saying what's the point is just a cop out based on apathy.

When someone goes into a business negotiation with others it would be incredibly stupid to tell everyone everything that is part of their negotiating tactic. Why should you be told before a negotiation has even started what all the bargaining chips are. That isn't undemocratic it's common sense. What is undemocratic is clutching at desperate straws to overturn a vote that was clear and fair.

We had decent civil rights and a good welfare system before the EU why would we suddenly become otherwise without it? Our decent values as a people haven't changed.

Overly sensitive? You suggested I should have the inside track on several government policies before passing comment earlier....not just from this country but others too!

When an opinion is considered a luxury we should worry, I am acutely aware other countries don't have those rights but I'm afraid the old 'it could be worse' tack is irrelevant here. This isn't another country.
Yes we have rights, the retention of those rights is the crux of my issue, the erosion of rights and civil protections is why I and others are losing faith in the current government to maintain and protect those rights.

If I understand nothing about the EU? yet I desprately find it a force for good? Who understands something about brexit?

Nobody understands even the simplest of definition of what brexit means for the UK least of all those in positions of power who advocated it, therefore I am fully within my rights to express confusion and concern regarding it's execution. ...And yet we were fed it would be a force for good, but what do we know?..... Nothing.

I can't comment on Scotland leaving the union or it's impact as it hasn't happened those are my terms because they are the terms.... there is nothing to discuss as we cannot with any accuracy at all predict an outcome.
Unlike what has happened following the EU referendum, we have something to measure against there, and so far... it's a disaster, truly a disaster. Lies lies and damned lies are all we have to take away from the pre referendum pledges.

Protest is important not sure how you arrived at the conclusion I don't feel it is, maybe my views were lost in translation?
The public opinion of protesters are so maligned and misrepresented in the media it is hard for anyone with a grievance to get an objective perceptive due to the social disobedient slant that most anti establishment causes receive.
This happens across the board and it would be false to suggest it doesn't.

The fear mongering is as you have highlighted that there is a wish to overturn the decision of the referendum, that is not the case, the business of politics in a democratic society is done overtly that is the definition it is debated and voted on by represented the behind closed doors scenario you've described is not democracy in action.

As I have stated I feel those protections are being slowly eroded it may or not have everything to do with our connection to the EU although there are workers directives that are directly under threat following brexit. Can I rely on the British public to insist the govt maintain those protections? ... I 100% hope so as long as we remain united to that cause. Sometimes I feel the needs of business is placed higher than the needs of society and this is what needs to be kept balanced.
There is no ' big society' only 'big business'.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

To be honest Kizzy - What you write above flies in the face of your many, many, complaints about this country on numerous threads.

I doesn't, it perhaps flies in the face of your misinterpretation of my issues on numerous threads.

[Johnnyuk123]

I'm with Kirk and Jaxie on this one 100%

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Overly sensitive? You suggested I should have the inside track on several government policies before passing comment earlier....not just from this country but others too!

When an opinion is considered a luxury we should worry, I am acutely aware other countries don't have those rights but I'm afraid the old 'it could be worse' tack is irrelevant here. This isn't another country.
Yes we have rights, the retention of those rights is the crux of my issue, the erosion of rights and civil protections is why I and others are losing faith in the current government to maintain and protect those rights.

If I understand nothing about the EU? yet I desprately find it a force for good? Who understands something about brexit?

Nobody understands even the simplest of definition of what brexit means for the UK least of all those in positions of power who advocated it, therefore I am fully within my rights to express confusion and concern regarding it's execution. ...And yet we were fed it would be a force for good, but what do we know?..... Nothing.

I can't comment on Scotland leaving the union or it's impact as it hasn't happened those are my terms because they are the terms.... there is nothing to discuss as we cannot with any accuracy at all predict an outcome.
Unlike what has happened following the EU referendum, we have something to measure against there, and so far... it's a disaster, truly a disaster. Lies lies and damned lies are all we have to take away from the pre referendum pledges.

Protest is important not sure how you arrived at the conclusion I don't feel it is, maybe my views were lost in translation?
The public opinion of protesters are so maligned and misrepresented in the media it is hard for anyone with a grievance to get an objective perceptive due to the social disobedient slant that most anti establishment causes receive.
This happens across the board and it would be false to suggest it doesn't.

The fear mongering is as you have highlighted that there is a wish to overturn the decision of the referendum, that is not the case, the business of politics in a democratic society is done overtly that is the definition it is debated and voted on by represented the behind closed doors scenario you've described is not democracy in action.

As I have stated I feel those protections are being slowly eroded it may or not have everything to do with our connection to the EU although there are workers directives that are directly under threat following brexit. Can I rely on the British public to insist the govt maintain those protections? ... I 100% hope so as long as we remain united to that cause. Sometimes I feel the needs of business is placed higher than the needs of society and this is what needs to be kept balanced.
There is no ' big society' only 'big business'.

Para 1 Uh where did I say that? Government policies, say what?

It could be worse is never irrelevant when you are bashing a country verbally.

You say you are worried about rights. What rights have changed since we voted leave?

We've not left the EU yet, where is the disaster?

Well you said protest was pointless.

[JoshBB]

Coming into this topic late, but

from a selfish point of view - I hope Scotland stays, we need more left-leaning MPs in parliament & nicola has been an absolute force for change recently

from an empathetic point of view - Scotland doesn't want brexit, they should leave the UK & get what they want

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

I'm with Kirk and Jaxie on this one 100%

On what.. do you have an opinion or just tag teaming?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Para 1 Uh where did I say that? Government policies, say what?

It could be worse is never irrelevant when you are bashing a country verbally.

We've not left the EU yet, where is the disaster?

Did you not ask whether I had knowledge of the Maastricht treaty?

Bashing a country verbally, so as a British citizen constructive criticism is outlawed now?...Shame.

The decision has been made and the disaster is unfolding even before any formal action, it can only be a precursor to a woeful period in history.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Did you not ask whether I had knowledge of the Maastricht treaty?

Bashing a country verbally, so as a British citizen constructive criticism is outlawed now?...Shame.

The decision has been made and the disaster is unfolding even before any formal action, it can only be a precursor to a woeful period in history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels

Still waiting to hear about the disaster, what it was, what happened?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Coming into this topic late, but

from a selfish point of view - I hope Scotland stays, we need more left-leaning MPs in parliament & nicola has been an absolute force for change recently

from an empathetic point of view - Scotland doesn't want brexit, they should leave the UK & get what they want

For me that makes sense, if a kingdom is not united in a decision then the portion that is not represented should have the option to split.

It seems rather telling that Scotland would rather be associated with the rest of Europe than the rest of the UK... Do they know something we don't? :/

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels

Still waiting to hear about the disaster, what it was, what happened?

Why the links?.... I don't want to know about Maastricht, I want to know about brexit.

The disaster that is the misinformation we are left with following the referendum decision.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

.

It seems rather telling that Scotland would rather be associated with the rest of Europe than the rest of the UK... Do they know something we don't? :/

there is no basis for that statement. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, it voted to remain part of the EU. Where has any Scottish vote expressed a preference to be in Europe rather than the UK

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why the links?.... I don't want to know about Maastricht, I want to know about brexit.

The disaster that is the misinformation we are left with following the referendum decision.

If you are pro EU and want to understand about Brexit you should read about Maastricht. It was a fairly important turning point. You see this is the issue I have, you moan and cry disaster but you don't want any information so you can understand anything about what you are talking about.

And we don't have any misinformation, they haven't released information at all yet.

So I suppose you just want to moan and cry disaster?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there is no basis for that statement. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, it voted to remain part of the EU. Where has any Scottish vote expressed a preference to be in Europe rather than the UK

That is what is being proposed now isn't it? It could be said that Scottish voters were spooked by the suggestion that they would be forced out of Europe to ensure they voted to remain in the Scottish referendum...Now they are being forcibly removed anyway then they have the right to vote again.

Again this is just my opinion, I don't have any knowledge of any factual evidence for this you understand.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there is no basis for that statement. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, it voted to remain part of the EU. Where has any Scottish vote expressed a preference to be in Europe rather than the UK

Took the words right out of my fingers

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

If you are pro EU and want to understand about Brexit you should read about Maastricht. It was a fairly important turning point. You see this is the issue I have, you moan and cry disaster but you don't want any information so you can understand anything about what you are talking about.

And we don't have any misinformation, they haven't released information at all yet.

So I suppose you just want to moan and cry disaster?

Where have I stated I am pro EU here?...

I am not moaning or crying, your use of these descriptors does nothing to detract from my point that I am worried about the future direction of the UK.

You can use condescending language and emojis all you like my view remains the same, we have had misinformation as we were told that brexit meant sovereignty... it doesn't, so far it means autocracy and that is all we have as well as a tumbling Ł.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That is what is being proposed now isn't it? It could be said that Scottish voters were spooked by the suggestion that they would be forced out of Europe to ensure they voted to remain in the Scottish referendum...Now they are being forcibly removed anyway then they have the right to vote again.

Again this is just my opinion, I don't have any knowledge of any factual evidence for this you understand.

This is why i suggested they have a vote to see if they want another ref.They may not.If they do then it would be pretty clear indication that they want to leave the UK.If not then it should'nt be forced upon them by Sturgeon after the turmoil the last one caused in Scotland.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I doesn't, it perhaps flies in the face of your misinterpretation of my issues on numerous threads.

Yeah OK. This is a direct copy of MY repeated comments to you.

You are using so many of my words and phrases now, that I sometimes have to look twice to ensure that I am not responding to my own posts.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

This is why i suggested they have a vote to see if they want another ref.They may not.If they do then it would be pretty clear indication that they want to leave the UK.If not then it should'nt be forced upon them by Sturgeon after the turmoil the last one caused in Scotland.

I'm sure that will happen unless Sturgeon takes a leaf out of Mays book and does what she wants regardless?...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm sure that will happen unless Sturgeon takes a leaf out of Mays book and does what she wants regardless?...

May has a mandate to leave the EU.We weren't asked to vote on the fine details of it.That will depend on how the negotiations go.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

May has a mandate to leave the EU.We weren't asked to vote on the fine details of it.That will depend on how the negotiations go.

Were we expecting debates in parliament?....I was.