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Old 20-05-2018, 03:42 AM #1
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Default Munk Debate Political Correctness Jordan Peterson, Stephen Fry, Michael Dyson...

Munk Debate HD Political Correctness
Jordan Peterson, Stephen Fry, Michael Dyson, Michelle Goldberg


Be It Resolved, What You Call Political Correctness, I Call Progress... -- Pro Versus Con



Two hour debate, but very good discussion... worth a listen... watching is optional I think... unless you want to see the fireworks going off I suppose

Genuinely, I think both sides would enjoy this debate...

Last edited by Maru; 20-05-2018 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 20-05-2018, 12:04 PM #2
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Michael Dyson
Frustrating, seems to think the modern world is comparable to the 1950s. Keeps bringing identity politics into everything, seems to believe BLM progoganda. Throwing around words like "you're a mean white man" and dismissing Dr Peterson's views because of this just show how shallow Dyson's views are. I'm not sure he even wanted to debate the issues being presented by the moderator, as he used every topic as an excuse to moan about his imagined oppressions.

Michelle Goldberg
Not too egregious, she has more nuanced views than Dyson, but has her head in the left bloggosphere a bit too much. This is probably why she was clearly out of her depth. The LOL TRUMP joke near the beginning was eyerolling though.

Stephen Fry
More or less puts my politics into decent words - I'm right leaning but not by a huge amount, but in general the left has gotten "more left", making me seem "more right". In general he's a delight to listen to, be it when he's playing Reginald Jeeves or one of the Melchetts, or when he's talking politics.

Jordan Peterson
I agree with him on collectivism, people basing their views and who they associate with based on inconsequential aspects of ones birth rather than common views and circumstances is just a bit pointless and shortsighted. I also agree with him in that race getting dragged into conversations where it's not relevant just makes the other side look silly. I don't agree with him on every point he makes, such as gender relations, but he rationalises in a way that I can understand why he thinks that, rather than "I WAS OPPRESSED 300 YEARS AGO"
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Old 20-05-2018, 01:07 PM #3
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I am so very, very grateful that you posted this, Maru. It is engrossing.

Stephen Fry is absolutely brilliant as usual, but I will have to watch it all again and analyse and contemplate deeply before posting any type of 'meaningful' response.
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Old 28-05-2018, 11:55 PM #4
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So I had to re-watch and listened to other people's point of views, as a lot of my initial feelings were more gut-level...

Michael Dyson, I was surprised how little substance there was to a lot of his arguments... I'd seen him on CNN before, and he certainly sounds pretty well educated on these issues, but he uses a lot of filler words (-logically, etc) . I gave him the benefit of the doubt since they were shorter interviews. So I figured with a longer exposure he would rub off better and make some good points. I'm disappointed at his performance in this debate.

He relies too heavily on emotional arguments for me to be persuaded by his rebuttals... particularly on arguments of morality. Having watched so much of how these cultural trends have played out, and how these moral arguments (or judgements) have been used to block healthy discussion about dealing with our cultural divisions, doesn't defuse people's concerns (I think) of those moral assessments and how their basis in PC is reaching more extreme levels... as JP pointed out.

One of the other things I got from this debate. I was surprised in myself that hearing "Angry White Man", didn't set off immediate alarm bells... I think we've just gotten used to these types of racial incriminations, that it's not even shocking anymore... Dyson goes into this epic victim mentality, but it falls on deaf ears I think when he uses these types of attacks.. because it's accomplishing the same things that PC culture is supposedly supposed to prevent... actually shows how ineffective PC culture is at directing healthy discussion.

Michelle I think might as well not have been there, as she started off fine, but then went straight to smears, which wasn't correct having seen the same videos she was quoting. So that did a lot to discredit her for me initially. She seems to be a really good speaker, but a lot of her commentary wasn't as thought provoking... it felt like she was regurgitating at points... but I think her arguments played out and painted a clearer picture of her POV than Dyson's.

Stephen Fry, I didn't really know who he is, but I thought he was uncharacteristically well spoken (as in uncommon) and was very gracious when delivering his points, even if some of them were a bit pointed. For example, when he said Dyson came off a snake oil salesman. I actually think he is a better debater than JP, (JP is "OK"), though JP sort of had to stay on the defensive for most of the debate. I don't think he knows how to get out of that. He got right to the point about how PC doesn't work in his view, where the left can improve from there, but wish I heard more from him and less of the vs JP bickering... that got a bit too predictable after a while, and I enjoyed hearing Fry speak... I may look him up on YT later.
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Old 29-05-2018, 12:24 AM #5
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Maru, Stephen Fry is mostly known as an actor rather than an "intellectual". He's mostly been in comedies for the past thirty or so years. He was also the host of a panel quiz show called QI, which was pretty decent - tricky/thought provoking questions, intelligent celebrities on the panels.
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Old 29-05-2018, 01:34 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_W View Post
Maru, Stephen Fry is mostly known as an actor rather than an "intellectual". He's mostly been in comedies for the past thirty or so years. He was also the host of a panel quiz show called QI, which was pretty decent - tricky/thought provoking questions, intelligent celebrities on the panels.
Sounds like he would be a good CBB housemate
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Old 29-05-2018, 05:09 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maru View Post
Sounds like he would be a good CBB housemate
It would be dynamite if Stephen Fry entered CBB. He does not suffer fools or boors lightly and has a mean temper when he does lose it.

You may be familiar with Hugh Laurie who now lives in the States him having been a big hit in the medical drama series, 'House'? Well, he was Fry's comedy partner for years - 'Fry & Laurie'.

Fry is a very complex troubled person and, I think, a decent guy. I have always liked him.

He once had a very memorable 'ding-dong' with Anne Widdicombe during a discussion on the subject of 'God' and Religion.

I am glad you enjoyed your show overall.
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Old 29-05-2018, 06:21 AM #8
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Quote:
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Sounds like he would be a good CBB housemate

I think he said he was asked before
and said no.


Of course
times change,
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Old 29-05-2018, 06:49 AM #9
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At 59mins
the best bit said by Stephen Fry


Trump/Brexit
is because of the Failure of the Left
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Old 29-05-2018, 02:46 PM #10
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Originally Posted by kirklancaster View Post
It would be dynamite if Stephen Fry entered CBB. He does not suffer fools or boors lightly and has a mean temper when he does lose it.

You may be familiar with Hugh Laurie who now lives in the States him having been a big hit in the medical drama series, 'House'? Well, he was Fry's comedy partner for years - 'Fry & Laurie'.

Fry is a very complex troubled person and, I think, a decent guy. I have always liked him.

He once had a very memorable 'ding-dong' with Anne Widdicombe during a discussion on the subject of 'God' and Religion.

I am glad you enjoyed your show overall.
Oh wow. Yeah, I know House. I can see where that would be dynamite ... I wouldn't have known he was British because he did so well with the accent change. Anyway, it would be cool if they both entered together as a "duo". I still think Courtney should've entered with another drag queen in the last CBB, someone to create drama and bring the entertainment with... that for me would've been comedy gold.

Re: @ding-dong... not flashing someone flashing their junk at poor Anne Widdecombe... Something new to add to the YT watch list I'll have to watch that debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arista View Post
I think he said he was asked before
and said no.


Of course
times change,
That's a shame... but can't really say I blame him...

Last edited by Maru; 29-05-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 29-05-2018, 03:07 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arista View Post
At 59mins
the best bit said by Stephen Fry


Trump/Brexit
is because of the Failure of the Left
Exactly. I think as JP mentioned, the PC debate has not done the left any favors...I feel like the "left" has "sold out" to some fair degree.

Like Oliver, my position "shifted" away from what what it was. It used to I considered myself a progressive, but what it is currently is a far cry from what I felt it stood for in my youth... which I aligned more with them where I felt social values had to be improved, as well as being more aware of our environmental impacts, moving towards cleaner energy, etc... not this oversensitive, we have to jerry-rig every conversation we have surrounding people of color/emotionally sensitive topics in order to "fix" all of our cultural ails...

Anyway, because both parties have gone more extreme with their platform, and as a result they've eliminated the voices of most reasonable folk from the mainstream political discourse. I remember when the Tea Party was in the news and was all over Facebook. That version of the right was so unpalatable and whine-y for me, that I voted largely Democrat and was still fairly progressive even then... but the right has become more accepting of a moderate approach, especially at a local level both where I am and when I lived out of state, that I feel like the current Democratic party is in the same position the Tea Party was for me when Obama was running...

So what it often ends up becoming, we vote against the party we are concerned with the most as moderate/independents and who we will think will be focused on the economy, jobs, etc, things that actually affect things today... since we don't really have a party that "stands" for most people per say, just those who are hyper-partisan and believe everything they read on social media or see in the news with regards to partisan rhetoric.
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Old 29-05-2018, 03:18 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arista View Post
At 59mins
the best bit said by Stephen Fry


Trump/Brexit
is because of the Failure of the Left
Haven't watched this yet but I definitely agree with this.
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Old 29-05-2018, 03:51 PM #13
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Haven't watched this yet but I definitely agree with this.

Yes I had to watch it in bits
as 2 Hours is long.

I think this kind of High Level Debate should
go on Ch4HD, Ch5HD
or BBC2HD - late night.
Keeping it on internet or just Canada TV
is not enough.

As Maru
says all 4 got their points over well.

Last edited by arista; 29-05-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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