[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by parmnion

They should round up a mob of dm clad skinheads to beat these vile ***** to death.......
Imo of course.....do you agree with that, or cant you imagine the face of a child as it is penetrated by a sweaty fat old man?

I've never tried to imagine the face of any child having sex, but whatever gets you through the night I guess.

I don't believe in the death penalty as a punishment, be it government mandated or a big butch gang of skinheads.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Who ****ing cares, plaster these vile scumbags faces all over the net, let everyone know who they are...then hopefully some right minded individuals can sort them out proper.

I agree with catching these sicko's and getting them locked up and getting justice . What I don't agree with is the whole citizen arrest / vigilante theme .

Leave it to the police,give them the information they need and help them. But don't start trying to take the law into your own hands as it can escalate and you can't catch these predators on your own .

I don't like this name & shame shtick with their faces over the net ,what if someone gets WRONGLY accused and witch hunted online .

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I've never tried to imagine the face of any child having sex, but whatever gets you through the night I guess.

Some people just have to look in the mirror to imagine/ remember

.just remember that next time you insinuate something.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

For a start, it makes the worst offenders be far more careful and therefore less likely to get caught by official means. Secondly, the actual conviction rate from these "stings" is abysmal. And when there is a conviction its rarely a meaningful one. Thirdly, anything they **** up - any hint that it was them that suggested a meeting / they pushed the conversation forwards themselves and the whole thing collapses and are now more careful and potentially more dangerous.

There's a reason that every "civilised" society throughout history has had laws against vigilantism. But hey... I guess these FB groups know better. .

That's not true, there is a very good conviction rate actually.
Throughout history there been facebook has there?... If these predictors are using social media to hunt for victims then what is wrong with utilising that to expose them?
They have in the past made mistakes but are now organised, educated as to the remit of the laws in relation to these 'stings' .
Would I prefer it if the police were the ones doing it? Yes, however the resources just aren't there therefore as a parent this is preferable to me than nothing.

If these civilians prevent the abuse/ attack of a child then is it not worth it?

[parmnion]

The only difference between this and undercover criminal reporter stings like mcintyre, roger cook etc is these guys phone the police there and then....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

The only difference between this and undercover criminal reporter stings like mcintyre, roger cook etc is these guys phone the police there and then....

Has roger cook made a programme in the last 20yrs?...How do we know if he wasn't still making these investigative stings as he did in the Cook report now he wouldn't adopt exactly the same tactics?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

They should round up a mob of dm clad skinheads to beat these vile ***** to death.......
Imo of course.....do you agree with that, or cant you imagine the face of a child as it is penetrated by a sweaty fat old man?

Is there really any need to be so crass about child rape?

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Is there really any need to be so crass about child rape?

Sorry m8..i was offline when you came on to troll me again.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's not true, there is a very good conviction rate actually.
Throughout history there been facebook has there?... If these predictors are using social media to hunt for victims then what is wrong with utilising that to expose them?
They have in the past made mistakes but are now organised, educated as to the remit of the laws in relation to these 'stings' .
Would I prefer it if the police were the ones doing it? Yes, however the resources just aren't there therefore as a parent this is preferable to me than nothing.

If these civilians prevent the abuse/ attack of a child then is it not worth it?

Who is "they"? This isn't one group, it's an absolute tonne of them, and for every one that's "learned to get it right" there's another blundering along / breaking the law themselves / actually assaulting people / targetting the WRONG people. For every live stream that goes viral another have-a-go-hero has the idea slap his mind that he should call his mates, lace up his steel toecaps and give it a go himself.

One of these groups that I personally know of targetted, "exposed" and harassed what turned out to be a 16 year old boy who thought he was meeting a 15 year old girl. I keep mentioning this on these threads, and it keeps being ignored, because people just don't want to accept that these groups are making HUGE ERRORS plenty of the time. This is within the last 6 months to a year. The "hunting" group then found themselves having their property vandalised and physical threats made against them... and tbqfh I can understand why. 4 burly football hooligans streaming a 16-year-old lad on social media and bellowing "paedophile" in his face.

Is online grooming a problem? Yes. But this is NOT the answer, and I worry deeply that people are going to consider this a "good enough" answer, with the failings just "collateral damage", and no one is going to bother actually seeking better solutions that don't involve vigilante justice. If we have to resort to vigilantism to solve our societal problems then we are in some serious, serious ****... the fact that the police are accepting / endorsing it just makes it even more scary. It's not something we should ever accept.

I'll say again; civilisations for thousands of years have had laws against vigilantes for very good reasons. Amateurs are going to make mistakes, hurt the wrong people, or get themselves hurt. It is inevitable.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Who is "they"? This isn't one group, it's an absolute tonne of them, and for every one that's "learned to get it right" there's another blundering along / breaking the law themselves / actually assaulting people / targetting the WRONG people. For every live stream that goes viral another have-a-go-hero has the idea slap his mind that he should call his mates, lace up his steel toecaps and give it a go himself.

One of these groups that I personally know of targetted, "exposed" and harassed what turned out to be a 16 year old boy who thought he was meeting a 15 year old girl. I keep mentioning this on these threads, and it keeps being ignored,
. This is within the last 6 months to a year. The "hunting" group then found themselves having their property vandalised and physical threats made against them... and tbqfh I can understand why. 4 burly football hooligans streaming a 16-year-old lad on social media and bellowing "paedophile" in his face.

Is online grooming a problem? Yes. But this is NOT the answer, and I worry deeply that people are going to consider this a "good enough" answer, with the failings just "collateral damage", and no one is going to bother actually seeking better solutions that don't involve vigilante justice. If we have to resort to vigilantism to solve our societal problems then we are in some serious, serious ****... the fact that the police are accepting / endorsing it just makes it even more scary. It's not something we should ever accept.

I'll say again; civilisations for thousands of years have had laws against vigilantes for very good reasons. Amateurs are going to make mistakes, hurt the wrong people, or get themselves hurt. It is inevitable.

I commented similar thoughts above, I'm sure you'll see my message somewhere.

Anytime you get civilians taking the law into their own hands on some power Trip it goes to their heads and they start wrongly accusing people .

I also wonder if they've come across so many paedophiles online that they stupidly think every male arranging to meet a girl is an old man predator , it doesn't surprise me they've made huge errors it was bound to happen as the whole idea is a terrible set up.

Plus they're putting their own lives in danger . Should be left to the police entirely . If police make mistakes just think of the mess these vigilante's are making .

Everyone wants to be a hero with a cape trying to catch all the evil people ,and it doesn't work that way .

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Who is "they"? This isn't one group, it's an absolute tonne of them, and for every one that's "learned to get it right" there's another blundering along / breaking the law themselves / actually assaulting people / targetting the WRONG people. For every live stream that goes viral another have-a-go-hero has the idea slap his mind that he should call his mates, lace up his steel toecaps and give it a go himself.

One of these groups that I personally know of targetted, "exposed" and harassed what turned out to be a 16 year old boy who thought he was meeting a 15 year old girl. I keep mentioning this on these threads, and it keeps being ignored, because people just don't want to accept that these groups are making HUGE ERRORS plenty of the time. This is within the last 6 months to a year. The "hunting" group then found themselves having their property vandalised and physical threats made against them... and tbqfh I can understand why. 4 burly football hooligans streaming a 16-year-old lad on social media and bellowing "paedophile" in his face.

Is online grooming a problem? Yes. But this is NOT the answer, and I worry deeply that people are going to consider this a "good enough" answer, with the failings just "collateral damage", and no one is going to bother actually seeking better solutions that don't involve vigilante justice. If we have to resort to vigilantism to solve our societal problems then we are in some serious, serious ****... the fact that the police are accepting / endorsing it just makes it even more scary. It's not something we should ever accept.

I'll say again; civilisations for thousands of years have had laws against vigilantes for very good reasons. Amateurs are going to make mistakes, hurt the wrong people, or get themselves hurt. It is inevitable.

You keep highlighting this law... which law are they breaking adopting this practice?

Should we as a civilised society accept grooming?...I see your point on the groups that are not acting within the perimeters of current police practice however, it is not fair to suggest that civil enforcement cannot be a valued resource for an already stretched service.

Throughout history there have been organisations that work in conjunction with the police, there's a whole 3rd sector of volunteers that ensure the safety of communities and society as a whole. Why would this area not benefit from the involvement of the public if coordinating with neighbourhood policing teams?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Sorry m8..i was offline when you came on to troll me again.

I love how you never have a response to what anyone has actually said.

Never mind. Just delete your original comment and pretend you never posted it.

Like a child covering their eyes thinking it makes them invisible.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You keep highlighting this law... which law are they breaking adopting this practice?

Should we as a civilised society accept grooming?...I see your point on the groups that are not acting within the perimeters of current police practice however, it is not fair to suggest that civil enforcement cannot be a valued resource for an already stretched service.

Throughout history there have been organisations that work in conjunction with the police, there's a whole 3rd sector of volunteers that ensure the safety of communities and society as a whole. Why would this area not benefit from the involvement of the public if coordinating with neighbourhood policing teams?

As a society and within our community we should help police and stop these sicko's but as I've said you can't be a hero vigilante by yourself.

And the problem with these Hunter groups is they abuse it and things escalate and people can and have been wrongly accused .

Once a face is posted online and named & shamed that's it .

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I love how you never have a response to what anyone has actually said.

Never mind. Just delete your original comment and pretend you never posted it.

Like a child covering their eyes thinking it makes them invisible.

No..i wont delete my original comment..

You could report it though if you cant handle the image.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You keep highlighting this law... which law are they breaking adopting this practice?

Should we as a civilised society accept grooming?...I see your point on the groups that are not acting within the perimeters of current police practice however, it is not fair to suggest that civil enforcement cannot be a valued resource for an already stretched service.

Throughout history there have been organisations that work in conjunction with the police, there's a whole 3rd sector of volunteers that ensure the safety of communities and society as a whole. Why would this area not benefit from the involvement of the public if coordinating with neighbourhood policing teams?

As you said yourself, their tactics have adapted over the years to ensure that they aren't technically breaking any laws. These groups used to go around sending threatening letters, attacking vehicles, smashing windows, etc. but have evolved to legitimise themselves. It's the same people, though... and finding "loopholes" to keep it legal doesn't negate the fact that it's vigilantism, nor nullify the reasons that vigilantism generally is not a good idea.

Is your argument that these groups DON'T make mistakes and victimise innocent people? Or that they AREN'T at risk of getting themselves or other members of the public hurt?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As you said yourself, their tactics have adapted over the years to ensure that they aren't technically breaking any laws. These groups used to go around sending threatening letters, attacking vehicles, smashing windows, etc. but have evolved to legitimise themselves. It's the same people, though... and finding "loopholes" to keep it legal doesn't negate the fact that it's vigilantism, nor nullify the reasons that vigilantism generally is not a good idea.

Is your argument that these groups DON'T make mistakes and victimise innocent people? Or that they AREN'T at risk of getting themselves or other members of the public hurt?

You are presuming it is the same groups that operated in a violent manner that have legitimised themselves today... but you don't have any evidence of that.

There is a lot of public support for these kind of sting and the evidence is proving to ensure convictions, the police are now engaging with these groups to maintain best practice. That has to be the way forward now with regulated groups affiliated with their neighborhood policing teams.

I don't have a problem with the groups who refuse to be regulated by the police being disbanded, however if social media continues as a way for predators to reach children they will continue to operate better it be in conjunction with the police than not.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

As a society and within our community we should help police and stop these sicko's but as I've said you can't be a hero vigilante by yourself.

And the problem with these Hunter groups is they abuse it and things escalate and people can and have been wrongly accused .

Once a face is posted online and named & shamed that's it .

Who said you could or should be a vigilante by yourself?...

Yes people have been wrongly accused, ask Cliff Richard.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You are presuming it is the same groups that operated in a violent manner that have legitimised themselves today... but you don't have any evidence of that.

There is a lot of public support for these kind of sting and the evidence is proving to ensure convictions, the police are now engaging with these groups to maintain best practice. That has to be the way forward now with regulated groups affiliated with their neighborhood policing teams.

I don't have a problem with the groups who refuse to be regulated by the police being disbanded, however if social media continues as a way for predators to reach children they will continue to operate better it be in conjunction with the police than not.

Of course its the same groups, have you ever watched the live streams? They might not be throwing punches but they're still highly aggressive. You're also still willfully ignoring the point about mistakes being made and innocent people being caught in the crossfire of amateurs... Which does happen.

It's a dangerous, slippery slope and it's naively optimistic to assume that this style of... Ahem... "community policing" will be limited sexual predators in the long run. I get that it's a highly emotive topic, the fact that children and teens are groomed and abused is horrific, but I personally believe that emotions and outrage running high on this topic clouds peoples rational judgement on whether or not vigilantism in general is something we want to accept. "Well not for most things but in this special case its OK" isn't really a sensible answer. You can't half-open the door to this sort of thing. I'm not OK with any form of social media mob justice, and so I can't be OK with this.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

No..i wont delete my original comment..

You could report it though if you cant handle the image.

I don't want anything deleted.

You just tend to do that when you feel you have nothing more to say. As though that should end the discussion for anyone else.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Of course its the same groups, have you ever watched the live streams? They might not be throwing punches but they're still highly aggressive. You're also still willfully ignoring the point about mistakes being made and innocent people being caught in the crossfire of amateurs... Which does happen.

It's a dangerous, slippery slope and it's naively optimistic to assume that this style of... Ahem... "community policing" will be limited sexual predators in the long run. I get that it's a highly emotive topic, the fact that children and teens are groomed and abused is horrific, but I personally believe that emotions and outrage running high on this topic clouds peoples rational judgement on whether or not vigilantism in general is something we want to accept. "Well not for most things but in this special case its OK" isn't really a sensible answer. You can't half-open the door to this sort of thing. I'm not OK with any form of social media mob justice, and so I can't be OK with this.

I'm not suggesting that hasn't happened which is why I say push for affiliation and closer working with the police to ensure those situations are not repeated.

We are discussing groups working within communities so what better to work alongside neighbourhood policing teams? Not sure what the 'Ahem' is for :/

I would've thought the police would welcome public involvement to solve any and all crime... we are constantly told to remain vigilant and report suspect behaviours to the police.

Social media like the rest of the web has, as you highlighted in another thread some seriously dark corners... the police hasn't the time or the resources to flush them out. These groups can be utilised if managed effectively, like a 'dads army'. of er... dads?