[Marsh.]

Transactivists receive no abuse? Ok, I'll take your word for it.

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

Tbh terf is literally just trans exclusionary radical fems, can be either Male or female, from what I can tell usually female tho I’ve seen men express trans exclusionary views online and get called it

A lot of feminists own this term and call themselves it too lol

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I don't think there are many men who speak out about the rights of women/transwomen for me to make any comparison as to their treatment.

Luckily there are many, and more by the day as men wake up to how much of a mens rights movement transactivism is now. And to be clear, I don't mean the likes of India, who has got along quite fine and not many people would have an issue sharing womens loos and such with her as she is post op. Thats not what transactivists are fighting for, infact they call people like India 'truscum'. They are fighting for ANY MAN to have access to womens rights, basically. Which makes womens rights utterly meaningless.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Tbh terf is literally just trans exclusionary radical fems, can be either Male or female, from what I can tell usually female tho I’ve seen men express trans exclusionary views online and get called it

A lot of feminists own this term and call themselves it too lol

Started as this, has not been this for a long time, most of the people its thrown at are not rad fems anyway. It generally does not get thrown at blokes for the same views (though Graham Lineham of Father Ted fame has been called a terf recently ), and its almost always accompanied by threats of violence.

https://terfisaslur.com/

Not been updated for a while...but gives an idea of what it means these days. Just aniother misogynistic slu7r. Also check out the cotton ceiling section. Shows how homophobic transactivists are too...even Stonewall back that.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Luckily there are many, and more by the day as men wake up to how much of a mens rights movement transactivism is now. And to be clear, I don't mean the likes of India, who has got along quite fine and not many people would have an issue sharing womens loos and such with her as she is post op. Thats not what transactivists are fighting for, infact they call people like India 'truscum'. They are fighting for ANY MAN to have access to womens rights, basically. Which makes womens rights utterly meaningless.

Yeah, this is the point everyone seem to be just ignoring

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Transactivists receive no abuse? Ok, I'll take your word for it.

You don't need to take my word for it, go check out their timelines. They may get the odd abusive message but its nothing at all like what feminists get. Each of my twitter posts gets at least 20 threats and 'bitch' 'slut' etc type replies. Even ones that are **** all to do with trans matters, because I am on the radar of these men who want women to shut up about stuff that affects them.

[Nicky91]

i get the problem with this, but it's also not that India is a likeable person, not at all, the way she came over on CBB

so if that feminist just told India she isn't a good role model for the women in general, there wasn't any problem whatsoever

it's just the way this person said it now, came over as homophobic, insult towards the LGBTQ community and that is just plain rude

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

i get the problem with this, but it's also not that India is a likeable person, not at all, the way she came over on CBB

so if that feminist just told India she isn't a good role model for the women in general, there wasn't any problem whatsoever

it's just the way this person said it now, came over as homophobic, insult towards the LGBTQ community and that is just plain rude

Theres not generally a problem with post op people like India. Posie was invited on to discuss transactivism as a whole, then railroaded into discussing one trans person, when its not about individuals, its about the movement as a whole. And I genuinely cannot see how anyone can think that any man should be able to declare himself a woman and have womans rights. I don't. And I definitely do not see how people can not see that opening up womens rights to men makes womens rights meaningless. The word woman matters. Cis is sexist bollocks (against both men and women) as it relies solely on sex stereotypes. Transwomen are transwomen, and women are women. I don't get what the issue is with saying that.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Theres not generally a problem with post op people like India. Posie was invited on to discuss transactivism as a whole, then railroaded into discussing one trans person, when its not about individuals, its about the movement as a whole. And I genuinely cannot see how anyone can think that any man should be able to declare himself a woman and have womans rights. I don't. And I definitely do not see how people can not see that opening up womens rights to men makes womens rights meaningless.

and trans people are also quite insecure, not all of them but many are quite insecure, i personally am not against trans people, everyone has the right to be happy who they are for themselves

there definitely isn't much respect for women's rights, which should improve honestly, that subject has been going on for a long time now

equality for me is what should be more in the world, everyone is the same, we are all human, sorry if i sound poetic now with this

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

and trans people are also quite insecure, not all of them but many are quite insecure, i personally am not against trans people, everyone has the right to be happy who they are for themselves

there definitely isn't much respect for women's rights, which should improve honestly, that subject has been going on for a long time now

equality for me is what should be more in the world, everyone is the same, we are all human, sorry if i sound poetic now with this

See I know this view will be controversial here, but equality is not what I want. I want equity. Acknowledgement that some of us are different (for example women have different needs to men a lot of the time due to biology) and steps taken to try and make everything fairer.



In the case of the topic at hand, that would be a third unisex option for transpeople. ONTOP of single sex areas. So they have the right to use either the areas of their sex, or the unisex one if they do not feel comfortable using the areas that their sex is meant to use. As sex segregated areas are segregated by sex, not 'gender' anyway, and this needs to be acknowledged by all really. There is absolutely no point in segregating areas where one is naked or vulnerable by 'gender' which amounts to nothing more than a feeling in ones head, that a lot of people don't even have! (though women have had an honour system with transsexuals going for years and years anyway, where women will politely pretend they do not know the person is male, as they acknowledge that they have a difficult life. This is massively under threat with the behaviour/demands of transactivists tbh).

[Livia]

Interesting that it's mostly the males on this thread are telling us how bad transsexuals have it. And yes, some of them do, and I'm truly sorry for that. Everyone has a right to be happy.

That doesn't make the outrageous campaign against any woman who speaks out acceptable.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Interesting that it's mostly the males on this thread are telling us how bad transsexuals have it. And yes, some of them do, and I'm truly sorry for that. Everyone has a right to be happy.

That doesn't make the outrageous campaign against any woman who speaks out acceptable.

Who said it was acceptable? You seem to be putting words in mouths now.

You seem a little too preoccupied with dismissing opinions as "Oooh, well that's a male forum member so their view doesn't matter". Knock yourself out.

[Marsh.]

Moving the goalposts of the discussion from India Willoughby and this blogger and the debate they've had to the larger and more extreme examples of both of them doesn't help a reasoned discussion neither. It's all a little muddled.

Such as the points actually raised in this debate versus "can anyone identify as anything" are a different and much larger discussion IMO.

[Vicky.]

I think it helps to have a bit more background of quite what we are dealing with here And the reasons Posie has ended up with the action of the billboard (which was what she was invited to discuss..the billboard, why it happened and the behaviour of transactivists, not India Willougby).. As women are just not being listened to. This has forced the issue really, and oddly enough, most people appear to agree with Posie, though seem to think she has a very harsh way of putting her opinions across. But yes, noone actually thinks transwomen are women. Hence 'transwoman'. And thats ****ing fine! Except apparently its not.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Who said it was acceptable? You seem to be putting words in mouths now.

You seem a little too preoccupied with dismissing opinions as "Oooh, well that's a male forum member so their view doesn't matter". Knock yourself out.

You do me a disservice Marshy. Look at the reaction to Vicky's post saying what the "Feminist" ( keep putting it in inverted commas because I'm too lazy to go back and find out her name) has suffered since exercising her freedom of speech. If a transsexual and his/her family/kids went through the same I wonder if people would be more worried?

And yes, men are entitled to have their say. But so are woman. Sadly if women have their say they run the risk of being abused online, at best, and in receipt of vile threats at worse.

[Vicky.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4IhPncF3w

Check out the difference between sky news, and the this morning **** show. Sky news actually stuck to the topic she was meant to be talking about. This morning was meant to be about the same thing, not one specific post op transsexual.

I especially like her ending comment, about the whole reason she did it was because she knew entitled males would kick off about it. That basically their (predicted) reaction would get publicity for whats going on. And it has. 700 quid well spent (and refunded, after the misogynist doctor who takes part in doxxing also, complained. And she got a refund and now has another billboard)

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

You do me a disservice Marshy. Look at the reaction to Vicky's post saying what the "Feminist" ( keep putting it in inverted commas because I'm too lazy to go back and find out her name) has suffered since exercising her freedom of speech. If a transsexual and his/her family/kids went through the same I wonder if people would be more worried?

I'm sorry, you're posing a hypothetical scenario and want to discuss that rather than the topic at hand. If not, I don't follow?

Originally Posted by Livia

And yes, men are entitled to have their say. But so are woman. Sadly if women have their say they run the risk of being abused online, at best, and in receipt of vile threats at worse.

That doesn't explain why you feel the need to point out the genders/sexes of forum members, unless such a thing is happening in this very discussion.

Saying women receive online abuse is fine, it's factual. Framing it with comments about this thread/forum itself is needless IMO.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4IhPncF3w

Check out the difference between sky news, and the this morning **** show. Sky news actually stuck to the topic she was meant to be talking about. This morning was meant to be about the same thing, not one specific post op transsexual.

I especially like her ending comment, about the whole reason she did it was because she knew entitled males would kick off about it. That basically their (predicted) reaction would get publicity for whats going on. And it has. 700 quid well spent (and refunded, after the misogynist doctor who takes part in doxxing also, complained. And she got a refund and now has another billboard)

"Entitled males" being trans women?

So they can't be "women" but now can't be "trans women" either so just "males"?

Or are they referring to men of all forms?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

"Entitled males" being trans women?

So they can't be "women" but now can't be "trans women" either so just "males"?

Or are they referring to men of all forms?

Entitled males being transactivists, not transwomen. Most transactivists are not even transsexual (and will abuse those who are actually transexual), at least the ones who kick off about stuff like the dictionary definition of woman..aren't. Transactivists on the whole, are just MRAs, or misogynists latching onto a cause. Obviously not all transactivists are like that, some genuinely do care about transsexual people. But the ones who are sending out daily threats to women, they aren't actually transsexual, usually.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Timeslikethese

A
Psychologically speaking, trans women are not simply socialised advantageously. They are socialised into a gender that they do not recognise.

You do know that 'trans' goes beyond transsexual? I would agree that transsexual people have a difficult life. But 'trans' these days is so wide it covers near all people. By the Stonewall definition anyway.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/01/trans...-girl-7994533/

As an example of what passes for transwoman these days. And exactly what feminists are fighting against. This man, will likely be sent to a female prison. There have been a few cases recently of rapists being sent to female prisons as they claim to be 'trans'.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Timeslikethese

So, the answer would be to dismiss the rights of all trans people? To assume guilt and malicious intent by default? And not to reform the prison system? Or consider the assault on mental health that is the trans experience?

I can't think of any way in which this wouldn't make the situation worse, and it would be done to protect women in only very specific circumstances. I hazard crimes from people with worsening mental health would be very much on the rise. Angry, disaffected people walking the streets feeling isolated and hated.

And then what? When people snap they aren't allowed to walk the streets to protect other people?

Utter utter hyperbole. Noone wants trans people to have to stay indoors. Noone wants them to not have human rights.

The current system is fine. Transwomen can be moved to female prisons if they have a GRC. Which can be gained by having doctors agree you have gender dysphoria. And with a small fee, that is waived if you have a low income. The GRC system was made with it in mind that transsexuals were a very small number of people, it was estimated to help 5000 people. Today, just under 5000 people have a GRC, so its working exactly as intended. But transactivists say that such a small number of people having one is proof its not working, as there are 500,000 'trans' people in the UK. This is with the ever widening definition of trans of course. Not with what people think of when they hear trans...which is transsexual.

No reason at all to change this system, which helps transsexuals, while also keeping out fetishists and such. It puzzled me for a long time why transactivists were fighting for 'self ID'. Until it clicked, that transactivism in its current form is nothing more than a mens sexual rights movement. Now their behaviour and demands make so much sense.

[smudgie]

India is a woman. Having had the full transaction. ( not sure if that’s the correct description).
I am a woman.
I don’t feel my femininity is threatened by transsexuals.
For medical purposes I am a biological woman.
I really don’t get the constant hype and aggro about it all.
Live and let live.

[Chero]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I think it helps to have a bit more background of quite what we are dealing with here And the reasons Posie has ended up with the action of the billboard (which was what she was invited to discuss..the billboard, why it happened and the behaviour of transactivists, not India Willougby).. As women are just not being listened to. This has forced the issue really, and oddly enough, most people appear to agree with Posie, though seem to think she has a very harsh way of putting her opinions across. But yes, noone actually thinks transwomen are women. Hence 'transwoman'. And thats ****ing fine! Except apparently its not.

It's only fine if you can get a man to agree with you.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

India is a woman. Having had the full transaction. ( not sure if that’s the correct description).
I am a woman.
I don’t feel my femininity is threatened by transsexuals.
For medical purposes I am a biological woman.
I really don’t get the constant hype and aggro about it all.
Live and let live.

The sentiment is good Smudgie and I believe that was what was happening before all these campaigns to change laws that could potentially put women in danger with this Self ID stuff ie. putting male rapists in female prisons because they say they're female now. That's doing a disservice to not only biological women but also to genuine trans people like India

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The sentiment is good Smudgie and I believe that was what was happening before all these campaigns to change laws that could potentially put women in danger with this Self ID stuff ie. putting male rapists in female prisons because they say they're female now. That's doing a disservice to not only biological women but also to genuine trans people like India

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.
Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.
Perhaps the disabled toilets could be renamed and shared between disabled and trans.
I know wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.