[Nicky91]

https://apnews.com/ad0a3e33821b4bd8804e2d9b85425532

JERUSALEM (AP) — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s off-hand comment in Warsaw about Poland and the Holocaust set in motion a diplomatic crisis that on Monday scuttled this week’s summit of central European leaders in Israel.

Poland’s abrupt decision to cancel its participation in the planned Visegrad conference in protest blew up the gathering, which Netanyahu has touted as a major milestone in his outreach to emerging democracies in eastern Europe and his broader goal of countering the criticism Israel typically faces in international forums.

The crisis was sparked last week when Netanyahu told reporters that “Poles cooperated with the Nazis.” The seemingly innocuous comment infuriated his Polish hosts, who reject suggestions that their country collaborated with Hitler.

Poland’s prime minister, Mateusz Morawiecki, announced Sunday that he would be skipping this week’s Visegrad summit, a gathering with fellow prime ministers from Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Polish Foreign Minister Jacek Czaputowicz was supposed to replace him at Tuesday’s meeting in Jerusalem, the first time the gathering is being held outside of Europe.

But after Israel’s acting foreign minister reiterated the collaboration claims, Morawiecki cancelled Poland’s participation altogether, denouncing the comments as “racist.” As a result, the summit was called off and Netanyahu was planning to meet the other leaders independently.

Lost in the diplomatic uproar was that Netanyahu was actually defending his close alliance with Poland and other eastern European leaders when he made his comments.

Historians and domestic critics have accused Netanyahu of cozying up too tightly to nationalistic leaders who have promoted a distorted image of the Holocaust and turning a blind eye to anti-Semitism associated with them.

Morawiecki himself last year equated Polish perpetrators of the Holocaust to supposed “Jewish perpetrators.” Netanyahu has recently hosted leaders of Lithuania, Ukraine and other countries who have engaged in selective World War II-era commemorations that play down their countries’ culpability while making heroes out of anti-Soviet nationalists involved in the mass killing of Jews.

In response to a question from The Associated Press during his two-day visit to Warsaw, Netanyahu said he raises the issue of historical revisionism with the various leaders. He rejected the notion he was a partner to diminishing anyone’s complicity in the genocide of Jews in World War II.

“I know the history. I don’t starch it and I don’t whitewash it. In Lithuania, in particular, there were some horrible things. No one is concealing that,” said Netanyahu, the son of a historian. “This whole idea that we diminish history — we don’t distort, and we don’t hide, and no one has any interest in that, on the contrary.”

[Nicky91]

Poland got invaded by Nazi-Germany and Russia i thought

also several of their officers got murdered by russians


ok there were concentration camps in poland, but it's not like polish had a choice back then or any rights in their country which was taken by nazi's

[Twosugars]

it's true, Nicky, but it's more complicated than that
Poland has a record numbers of its citizens honoured by Israel for helping Jews, but there was antisemitism and collaboration with the Nazis by some Poles too. Like in the rest of Europe I might add. I believe Poland had the most Jews per population before the war and there were tensions between Jews and Poles. It's a long and complicated history, starting with Poland inviting Jews to settle when they were persecuted in other parts of Europe centuries ago through increasingly uneasy cohabitation and then the war, up to the post-war pogrom of Jews by Poles in Jedwabne and finally push by the Communists to make Jews emigrate in 1968.
The Israeli government knows all that so such one-sided statements are unhelpful to both countries.
The funny thing is that for all animosity, Poles and Jews share an awful lot of culture so my hope is that eventually the common ground will prevail.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

it's true, Nicky, but it's more complicated than that
Poland has a record numbers of its citizens honoured by Israel for helping Jews, but there was antisemitism and collaboration with the Nazis by some Poles too. Like in the rest of Europe I might add. I believe Poland had the most Jews per population before the war and there were tensions between Jews and Poles. It's a long and complicated history, starting with Poland inviting Jews to settle when they were persecuted in other parts of Europe centuries ago through increasingly uneasy cohabitation and then the war, up to the post-war pogrom of Jews by Poles in Jedwabne and finally push by the Communists to make Jews emigrate in 1968.
The Israeli government knows all that so such one-sided statements are unhelpful to both countries.
The funny thing is that for all animosity, Poles and Jews share an awful lot of culture so my hope is that eventually the common ground will prevail.

yes like France had Vichy French bit who sided with Nazi-Germany after they had invaded france

but thank you for this information, some i didn't know yet

[Twosugars]

you're welcome, Nickster

but no, not like Vichy at all. Vichy was a puppet government of the French by the French. Poles didn't have a puppet government. Most Polish lands were absorbed by the Reich and the Soviet Union and what was left was governed by the Germans like a colony of sorts.

[JoshBB]

I mean it's not exactly diplomatic language lbh

[Livia]

There were 3.3 million Polish Jews at the start of WW2, 3 million of them were murdered leaving only just over 300,000 alive. Lots of those Jews were handed over by their countrymen who went on to steal their homes and property.

Those 3 million died in agony, starved, freezing, beaten... men, women, children... in the ghettos and the the death camps, Chelmo, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek.

So sorry a few words upset the Poles.

[arista]

Poland right now Nicky
is Extreme Right Wing.
Its amazing they are in the EU club.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by arista

Poland right now Nicky
is Extreme Right Wing.
Its amazing they are in the EU club.

they will need to be careful, otherwise they get sanctions just like Hungary now from EU

[arista]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

they will need to be careful, otherwise they get sanctions just like Hungary now from EU

Yes Hungary
another Extreme Right Wing Power

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by arista

Poland right now Nicky
is Extreme Right Wing.
Its amazing they are in the EU club.

I'm confused. Judging by your comments about the UK politics I thought you liked right wing

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Livia

There were 3.3 million Polish Jews at the start of WW2, 3 million of them were murdered leaving only just over 300,000 alive. Lots of those Jews were handed over by their countrymen who went on to steal their homes and property.

Those 3 million died in agony, starved, freezing, beaten... men, women, children... in the ghettos and the the death camps, Chelmo, Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek.

So sorry a few words upset the Poles.

And also many Jews were saved by Poles. Talking about one group without mentioning the other seems a bit one-sided.
The extreme fear brings the best and the worst in people. Collaboration with the Nazis took place all over Europe. Don't see Netanyahu picking fights with other countries, let alone the perpetrator of it all, Germany? Jews from all over Europe were shipped to the camps you mention.
Poland lost 6 million citizens in the war, 3 million were Jews, the other 3 million were Poles.
I'm not in denial about what some Poles did or about anti-semitism present in Poland (like the rest of Europe), but let's take the full picture into account and not insult heroes by tarring the whole nation with the same brush.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'm confused. Judging by your comments about the UK politics I thought you liked right wing

You do not know me.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by arista

You do not know me.

Duh, of course I do not know you, like you do not know me. Not many people here know each other, properly. I'm going by your comments only.

oh, and for a full picture, the current Israeli government is right wing too.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

And also many Jews were saved by Poles. Talking about one group without mentioning the other seems a bit one-sided.
The extreme fear brings the best and the worst in people. Collaboration with the Nazis took place all over Europe. Don't see Netanyahu picking fights with other countries, let alone the perpetrator of it all, Germany? Jews from all over Europe were shipped to the camps you mention.
Poland lost 6 million citizens in the war, 3 million were Jews, the other 3 million were Poles.
I'm not in denial about what some Poles did or about anti-semitism present in Poland (like the rest of Europe), but let's take the full picture into account and not insult heroes by tarring the whole nation with the same brush.

I don't feel like I've insulted anyone. You (or maybe Nicky) mentioned the Vichy French, but failed to mention the heroes of the French Resistance. So forgive me if the loss of 3 million Polish Jews colours my judgement a bit.

Yes, lots of Poles helped, they hid people, they got people out of the country, putting themselves at risk... but lots took the opportunity to strip Jews of their property and possessions. Lots of Polish families now live in houses stolen from Jews. A large number of Poles came to the UK and joined the war effort, the RAF, the army... similarly lots of Poles collaborated with the Germans and worked for the Nazis in the concentration camps. And Poles fell to Russians , a million of them in fact.

The difference between Germany and Poland for me is that Germany has laid its soul bare, come to terms with what they did and made peace with it. Poland is still turning a blind eye.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't feel like I've insulted anyone. You (or maybe Nicky) mentioned the Vichy French, but failed to mention the heroes of the French Resistance. So forgive me if the loss of 3 million Polish Jews colours my judgement a bit.

Yes, lots of Poles helped, they hid people, they got people out fo the country, putting themselves at risk... but lots took the opportunity to strip Jews of their property and possessions. Lots of Polish families now live in houses stolen from Jews. A large number of Poles came to the UK and joined the war effort, the RAF, the army... similarly lots of Poles collaborated with the Germans and worked for the Nazis in the concentration camps.

The difference between Germany and Poland for me is that Germany has laid its soul bare, come to terms with what they did and made peace with it. Poland is still turning a blind eye.

sorry i forgot mentioning that, i do know the French resistance also played a good role in D-Day preparation for and during how some French soldiers were among those who landed on the beaches with british, american, canadian forces

[Twosugars]

Again, for a full picture, you are aware that there were Jews who worked for Germans in camps too?
Tbh with you Livia, knowing human nature, I'm not surprised people's basest instincts were on show, are you? And I'd hazzard a guess that villains outnumbered heroes.
And you're right that Poland still needs to have moral reconning with the past. Honest national debate in Poland during decades of communism was impossible. Communists distorted the whole history of WWII and such distorted version was taught in schools. This version of exclusively heroic actions of Poles and saviour role of Soviets is deeply ingrained in people's psyche, they were brought up on it.

My point is that officials in Israeli government should have a more nuanced view of the situation and see the full picture.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Duh, of course I do not know you, like you do not know me. Not many people here know each other, properly. I'm going by your comments only.

oh, and for a full picture, the current Israeli government is right wing too.

Sure Israel is Right Wing
but its protecting its land.

It's a Fight on Land
that goes back to before
you and I were born.


On you , you are intelligent
that I like.

[Twosugars]

Oh, and I didn't accuse you Livia of insulting anyone. And even if you did, nvm. As private individuals we have that luxury.
My point is that at government level things should be different.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by arista

Sure Israel is Right Wing
but its protecting its land.

It's a Fight on Land
that goes back to before
you and I were born.


On you , you are intelligent
that I like.

are you saying that a left wing Israeli government doesn't protect its land? Right wing does not have a monopoly on patriotism and defence

Lol, you're intelligent too Arista, but very stubborn

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

are you saying that a left wing Israeli government doesn't protect its land? Right wing does not have a monopoly on patriotism and defence

Lol, you're intelligent too Arista, but very stubborn

you got a point

and i'd wish the entire Israëli, Palestine conflict just stops since it has been going on and on, in a neverending way it seems

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Again, for a full picture, you are aware that there were Jews who worked for Germans in camps too?
Tbh with you Livia, knowing human nature, I'm not surprised people's basest instincts were on show, are you? And I'd hazzard a guess that villains outnumbered heroes.
And you're right that Poland still needs to have moral reconning with the past. Honest national debate in Poland during decades of communism was impossible. Communists distorted the whole history of WWII and such distorted version was taught in schools. This version of exclusively heroic actions of Poles and saviour role of Soviets is deeply ingrained in people's psyche, they were brought up on it.

My point is that officials in Israeli government should have a more nuanced view of the situation and see the full picture.

I understand all that TS. But you know, every time I discuss the Holocaust someone always wants to remind me that other people died too. I know they did. And I know some Jews worked for the Nazis. I also knew the kind of choice they had in the matter. Conversely lots of Poles volunteered to work in the concentration camps, and a number of them were extremely good it.

The Poles co-operated with the Nazis probably more than any other nationality. Members of partisan organisations actively hunted and killed Jews who escaped ghettos and camps, and they weren't alone, ordinary Polish citizens also hunted and killed Jews, especially in rural areas. After the war, lots of collaborators were tried an executed, and rightly so; but this doesn't, for me, wipe out the wrongs. It is not an end to the matter. What's more, anti-Semitism in pre-war Poland was rife and the government excluded Jews from certain areas of public life.

I acknowledge the wrongs my country has done. I acknowledge the wrongs Israel has done... time for Poland to do the same.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

..........I'm not in denial about what some Poles did or about anti-semitism present in Poland (like the rest of Europe), but let's take the full picture into account and not insult heroes by tarring the whole nation with the same brush.

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Oh, and I didn't accuse you Livia of insulting anyone. And even if you did, nvm. As private individuals we have that luxury.
My point is that at government level things should be different.

Just for clarity.

And yes, at government level things should be different. But it is not a secret that many Poles were involved in the extermination of Jews. And gays, and Romanies, and Jehovah's Witnesses and the Masons and the disabled and lots of other people too.... and I won't insult their memory by pretending Poland was all good.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Livia

Just for clarity.

And yes, at government level things should be different. But it is not a secret that many Poles were involved in the extermination of Jews. And gays, and Romanies, and Jehovah's Witnesses and the Masons and the disabled and lots of other people too.... and I won't insult their memory by pretending Poland was all good.

I was clear, I made a distinction between a convo like we're having and official government pronouncements.

Many Poles were also involved in the extermination of Poles. The way you make it sound is as if Poles were perpetrators and not the victims too. Those Jews were also Polish. Those gays, Romanies, Jehova Witnesses, Masons and the disabled were Polish too, as were millions of Catholic Poles.

Edit: Actually who need Germans in the picture? It was all Poles, don't you know

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Livia

Just for clarity.

And yes, at government level things should be different. But it is not a secret that many Poles were involved in the extermination of Jews. And gays, and Romanies, and Jehovah's Witnesses and the Masons and the disabled and lots of other people too.... and I won't insult their memory by pretending Poland was all good.

it's not honouring their memory by pretending it was all bad