[Ramsay]

Abducted in plain sight is a perfect example of the type of grooming TS is on about. That little girl kept going back to B because she thought he loved her

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

When he was alive they were happy with their non disclosure payments of million and millions of dollars. Now he's dead they're back for more. How I see it in a nutshell.

It was Jordan Chandler who took a non-disclosure payment of millions and he is not involved with this documentary. Neither of the men involved in this documentary received any non-disclosure payment. So this may be "how you see it", but apparently "how you see it" is based on misinformation.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Livia

Abso-bloody-lutely.

The man's dead. When he was alive they were happy with their non disclosure payments of million and millions of dollars. Now he's dead they're back for more. How I see it in a nutshell.

If I was offered millions to say I didn't wank or have him wank me I can honestly say I would take it...then my big mouth would have to tell the truth in later years.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

See this is what happens people imagining stuff and adding to the falsehoods, Chinese whispers and people believing it all, it makes me more determined to stick with what the courts said.

The sleepovers and bed sharing are documented facts though. Even if you put all other aspects aside, a normal adult wouldn't conceive of doing something like that ... not in a million years.

If TS were to put an advert in his local paper saying children invited for sleepovers with adult. Free icecreams provided ..... how long do you think it would take the police to come calling

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

See this is what happens people imagining stuff and adding to the falsehoods, Chinese whispers and people believing it all, it makes me more determined to stick with what the courts said.

Kids are saying they were given drugs by Michael though, I am intitled to wonder about the amount that were drugged at bedtime considering the amount of kids he had stay over through the years.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It was Jordan Chandler who took a non-disclosure payment of millions and he is not involved with this documentary. Neither of the men involved in this documentary received any non-disclosure payment. So this may be "how you see it", but apparently "how you see it" is based on misinformation.

No, it's based on a deluge of misinformation.... it's all we have. No facts, and definitely no evidence...

[Niamh.]

My brothers response to me saying Gav won't watch it incase it turns him off the music........

Ah I think people have been compartmentalising that for a long time
"Great music, probably a paedo"

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

No, it's based on a deluge of misinformation.... it's all we have. No facts, and definitely no evidence...

Well... it's a fact that neither of the men on the documentary received non-disclosure payments from Jackson? Unless you're suggesting that they took payment off-the-record to testify for him / stay quiet but that would be pretty damning in itself.

[Glenn.]

I went completely off his music when he died and every radio station shoved him down our throats like he was such a loss lol

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

If I was offered millions to say I didn't wank or have him wank me I can honestly say I would take it...then my big mouth would have to tell the truth in later years.

Would you not want to protect other children from similar abuse? For monetary gain?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ah I think people have been compartmentalising that for a long time
"Great music, probably a paedo"

Well I mean, as controversial as it may be to say it... the two are really not related .

Though I personally would argue that fewer than 10 of his songs can be described as "great", mostly it's just "very good for pop".

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Would you not want to protect other children from similar abuse? For monetary gain?

That was my thoughts too.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Would you not want to protect other children from similar abuse? For monetary gain?

In an ideal world that I think we all have to sadly acknowledge does not reflect the real world.

People do a lot worse for significantly less, every single day.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well I mean, as controversial as it may be to say it... the two are really not related .

Though I personally would argue that fewer than 10 of his songs can be described as "great", mostly it's just "very good for pop".

It was music that defined pop in the 80's and into the 90's ...... I want to say I liked him more when I was a kid but that might not be very appropriate

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Nancy.

Exactly.

I watched the documentary last night and was disgusted by how incredibly one sided it was. It's nothing but a 4 hour propoganda piece designed to help get their appeal overturned after failing to sue MJ's estate for a BILLION dollars.

No one can deny the content and overly graphic and compelling material isn't shocking, but there are so many inconsistencies and facts the director, Dan Reed chose to omit or care to check up on. We see plenty of Wade and Jimmy's family, but nobody from Michael's family or anyone to speak up for him on his behalf.

Nothing is mentioned about Wade being bitter about being tossed aside in favour of Jamie King choreographing the Cirque Du Soleil shows that he DESPERATELY wanted to do, and coming to the realization he was abused by MJ TWO WEEKS afterwards.

Nothing is mentioned about him shopping around for a book deal to reveal all about MJ after getting dropped from Cirque Du Soleil.

Just like nothing is mentioned about MJ setting Wade and Brandy Jackson up on a date - to which they embarked on a 7 year relationship but ended after she found out he'd been cheating on her with Britney Spears - bearing in mind this was the same MJ who they claimed didn't like them associating and forming relationships with girls.

It's interesting how they spend so much of the documentary going into great detail about what happened durung the sexual abuse, but don't mention ANYTHING about Michael's Vitilego or the markings on his penis / body - which is something you'd expect to be of relevance to these accusations.

It's really difficult to comprehend how both would keep going back to a man who had allegedy done such disgusting things to them. I very much doubt a chld of 7 would perform oral sex on an adult without screaming blue murder, no matter how much they said they "loved each other".

They don't mention anything about the accusers appeal currently in motion to screw billions from MJ's Estate. (despite claiming "its not about money").

There's also inconsistencies with the familes too. Like when Safechuck's Mother claimed she danced when she heard MJ was dead in 2009, yet James said he didn't reveal anything about the abuse to her until 2013?

Then in the end credits we see Wade burning his MJ memorobilia, but what they don't tell you is he had sold off most items of REAL value years earlier with Julien’s Auctions - where he originally tried to sell them anonymously, but they wouldn't let him.

There's so many more shady facts on these guys that I could tell you.

When you look at their history of trying to get money out of MJ's estate, it's clear "Leaving Neverland" is just one big propoganda piece designed to make us pity them, and hoping this documentary this will help with their appeal. Unfortunately, those who don't know anything about the accusers will believe it and that's what's worrying. It's a slap in the face to REAL victims of abuse, tbh.

Great post Nancy, Why people are so willing to believe these too is very telling.Job done boys.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Great post Nancy, Why people are so willing to believe these too is very telling.Job done boys.

I mean he slept in the same bed as strangers kids, what do you think it "tells" about people who think that's a bit suspicious?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well... it's a fact that neither of the men on the documentary received non-disclosure payments from Jackson? Unless you're suggesting that they took payment off-the-record to testify for him / stay quiet but that would be pretty damning in itself.

No one knows, TS. You don't... I don't.... Jackson's dead so can't be interrogated... although if all the years that the FBI investigated him threw up nothing, I'm not about to believe unsubstantiated reports from people who haven't said anything until Jackson's dead and can't answer.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one knows, TS. You don't... I don't.... Jackson's dead so can't be interrogated... although if all the years that the FBI investigated him threw up nothing, I'm not about to believe unsubstantiated reports from people who haven't said anything until Jackson's dead and can't answer.

Do you believe that Saville might be innocent?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Do you believe that Saville might be innocent?

No I don't. I believe the evidence against Saville was overwhelming. Unlike this case... so I'm not sure what point you're making by bringing that up.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In an ideal world that I think we all have to sadly acknowledge does not reflect the real world.

People do a lot worse for significantly less, every single day.

Yeah, I'm aware. I, too, live on planet Earth.

The question was put to Parm who categorically said he would take a payout.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

No I don't. I believe the evidence against Saville was overwhelming. Unlike this case... so I'm not sure what point you're making by bringing that up.

Because he was dead and unable to be interrogated when the abuse became public, and also because all of the evidence is based on witness statement. Yes, an overwhelming number of witness statements but nonetheless; there is little to zero physical evidence of his crimes and he can't dispute the witness statements either. It's obviously not a direct comparison but it does show that we are sometimes happy to accept the guilt of people accused after their death and without physical evidence.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I mean he slept in the same bed as strangers kids, what do you think it "tells" about people who think that's a bit suspicious?

It tells me anyone who is close and sleeps with a kid is thought of as a paedo straight away, they weren't strangers kids according to them their parents welcomed him and regarded him as a friend as he had apparently groomed them too ,and as strange as it may seem ,just because someone sleeps in the same bed doesn't make them a paedo, he does explain that,it's all out there. In a nutshell there are too many lies and indiscrepancies for me to believe he abused kids.my opinion , that's all

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yeah, I'm aware. I, too, live on planet Earth.

The question was put to Parm who categorically said he would take a payout.

Yes but being totally honest I suspect most people say they wouldn't take the (alleged) $20+ million, until they're actually sat with a cheque for $20+ million in their hands. Especially when there are ZERO guarantees of what will happen if legal action continues, and the case may fail on lack of evidence. 20 million dallaz buys a lot of therapy.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because he was dead and unable to be interrogated when the abuse became public, and also because all of the evidence is based on witness statement. Yes, an overwhelming number of witness statements but nonetheless; there is little to zero physical evidence of his crimes and he can't dispute the witness statements either. It's obviously not a direct comparison but it does show that we are sometimes happy to accept the guilt of people accused after their death and without physical evidence.

Wasn't there tapes of Saville saying what he was doing ?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but being totally honest I suspect most people say they wouldn't take the (alleged) $20+ million, until they're actually sat with a cheque for $20+ million in their hands. Especially when there are ZERO guarantees of what will happen if legal action continues, and the case may fail on lack of evidence. 20 million dallaz buys a lot of therapy.

Well, thank you. But, again, it was a questiom for Parm.