[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That sentence just sounds so messed up though, you're even talking about them like they're scorned lovers.........which is not far off the truth imo

They're the ones twisting it to sound that way .I'm not saying it that way ! but think about it another way, if loads of kids idolise and spend time with their fav celebrity and they then find out actually that celebrity has other fans who get more attention then I think some would get jealous . An ordinary kid wouldn't care they'd just accept it , but if we're dealing with kids who are obsessive then that opens up all sorts .

[Toy Soldier]

Just another statistic to add as a matter of interest (for those who are sure it's not true because "it took so long to say anything");

The average time for an adult survivor of childhood abuse processing their experience and coming forward to speak out is 22 years from the incidents of abuse. With the abuse occuring in the early 90's, the timeframe for this actually fits the statistics perfectly.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Just another statistic to add as a matter of interest (for those who are sure it's not true because "it took so long to say anything");

The average time for an adult survivor of childhood abuse processing their experience and coming forward to speak out is 22 years from the incidents of abuse. With the abuse occuring in the early 90's, the timeframe for this actually fits the statistics perfectly.

Yeah I tried to say this earlier but was not quite so clear. Its utterly 'normal' for child abuse victims to not actually process or 'admit' or however you want to put it, until they are adults, and having their own kids seems to be a familiar trigger too.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Just another statistic to add as a matter of interest (for those who are sure it's not true because "it took so long to say anything");

The average time for an adult survivor of childhood abuse processing their experience and coming forward to speak out is 22 years from the incidents of abuse. With the abuse occuring in the early 90's, the timeframe for this actually fits the statistics perfectly.

But it's not just the time they took to come forward , there's quite a few other suspect things that make me doubt them .

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah I tried to say this earlier but was not quite so clear. Its utterly 'normal' for child abuse victims to not actually process or 'admit' or however you want to put it, until they are adults, and having their own kids seems to be a familiar trigger too.

Yes, people justify and normalise the activity to protect themselves emotionally and "make it OK in their head", then they have a kid of their own and suddenly realise "Oh wait... very much not OK".

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So you agree that the #1 key witness - described as such by Jackson's own legal team - in the 2005 trial, instrumental in his acquittal, is in fact by your own judgement "an unreliable witness" and thus the outcome of that trial is in question.

At least we're getting somewhere.

I can't answer you without referring to my legal training and you hate that... so no comment.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

They're the ones twisting it to sound that way .I'm not saying it that way ! but think about it another way, if loads of kids idolise and spend time with their fav celebrity and they then find out actually that celebrity has other fans who get more attention then I think some would get jealous . An ordinary kid wouldn't care they'd just accept it , but if we're dealing with kids who are obsessive then that opens up all sorts .

Omg..it's a tactic pedos use...they make targets compete against eachother for attention, then to maintain that attention they perform the act required...well, until the pedo gets bored and wants a new play thinqg, then they get tossed to the side, often ridiculed as they are sent packing....

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

They're the ones twisting it to sound that way .I'm not saying it that way ! but think about it another way, if loads of kids idolise and spend time with their fav celebrity and they then find out actually that celebrity has other fans who get more attention then I think some would get jealous . An ordinary kid wouldn't care they'd just accept it , but if we're dealing with kids who are obsessive then that opens up all sorts .

You're not talking about a simple thing like a kid meeting his celebrity hero though, you're talking about a 7 year old who used to sleep in the same bed as a grown man and then being "dumped" for a younger model

[bitontheslide]

This documentary should absolutely not be used to define Jackson's guilt or innocence. It's the TV equivalent of click bait

However, that being said, I made my mind up about Jackson years (decades) ago and it hasn't changed since. He wasn't normal, but he is dead now so ... really, who cares.

For me this is a bit similar to Kevin Spacey .... To me he is guilty as sin, but that doesnt stop me admiring his work as an actor. You don't need to condone one thing to appreciate the other.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah I tried to say this earlier but was not quite so clear. Its utterly 'normal' for child abuse victims to not actually process or 'admit' or however you want to put it, until they are adults, and having their own kids seems to be a familiar trigger too.

And that's totally understandable aswell, It must be a totally confusing state to be in, trying to process all that, I'd imagine there's alot of self blame attached to it and also probably confusing feelings of having "love" for this person. Even Macauley Culkin who defends MJ describes him as charming which is an odd adjective to use in a platonic buddy kind of a way, especially from a childs perspective

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Omg..it's a tactic pedos use...they make targets compete against eachother for attention, then to maintain that attention they perform the act required...well, until the pedo gets bored and wants a new play thinqg, then they get tossed to the side, often ridiculed as they are sent packing....

He ticks so many of the pedo tactic list. Befriending the family then slowly pushing them away from the kid as well

[Vicky.]

A lot of peoples view of a paedo is a random perv hiding in bushes groping random kids. While it does sometimes happen that way, it usually does not and involves a lot of work on the paedos part to get close enough to both abuse/ear parents trust, and keep the victim quiet..which is often by telling the victim that they will also get in trouble if anyone ever finds out.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

He ticks so many of the pedo tactic list. Befriending the family then slowly pushing them away from the kid as well

And yet the parents were happy to let their kids stay with him ?? .

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just get the impression that you've gone into this with preconceptions and a bias for wanting to believe in his innocence, Joey, it's pretty clear that that's the case for a few people.

My daughter a Jackson fan, wont even watch it and has dismissed it as lies ,and I think a lot of this has gone on, people don't want to believe, therefore they wont

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

And yet the parents were happy to let their kids stay with him ?? .

blinded with fame and the prospect of easy money

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

And yet the parents were happy to let their kids stay with him ?? .

The parents are to blame also. The mother giggling her way through a doc about abuse her kid suffered because SHE wanted fame, is vile.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

And yet the parents were happy to let their kids stay with him ?? .

The parents were idiots and neglectful, totally ridiculous. What's your point?

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

He ticks so many of the pedo tactic list. Befriending the family then slowly pushing them away from the kid as well

He wasn't only grooming the kids, he was also grooming the parents .........Ive got 4 children ( all grown up ) and no amount of money in the world would make me allow them to sleep in any mans bed ,the parents have a lot of feel guilty about too, if they had refused to let their boys sleep with him, none of this would have happened

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

He wasn't only grooming the kids, he was also grooming the parents .........Ive got 4 children ( all grown up ) and no amount of money in the world would make me allow them to sleep in any mans bed ,the parents have a lot of feel guilty about too, if they had refused to let their boys sleep with him, none of this would have happened

Yep. 100%

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The parents are to blame also. The mother giggling her way through a doc about abuse her kid suffered because SHE wanted fame, is vile.

If your child had genuinely been abused you wouldn't be laughing / smirking on camera unless of course she's effed in the head .

Sounds more like they're enjoying the attention .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

If your child had genuinely been abused you wouldn't be laughing / smirking on camera unless of course she's effed in the head .

Sounds more like they're enjoying the attention .

The parents may well be. I don't think many 'stage parents' come off well tbh, they seem much more concerned with fame than they are about their childs safety. No way do I believe there was never any alarm bells ringing for them, they just ignored it as they liked the lifestyle. Having ****ty parents is not the kids fault though.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

If your child had genuinely been abused you wouldn't be laughing / smirking on camera unless of course she's effed in the head .

Sounds more like they're enjoying the attention .

I mean whether all this is lies or not, they clearly are not good parents, whether MJ did anything sexual with these kids or not, they still allowed their young sons sleep in the same bed with this 30 odd year old man so I mean that point proves nothing really, either way they're shockingly neglectful parents

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The parents may well be. I don't think many 'stage parents' come off well tbh, they seem much more concerned with fame than they are about their childs safety. No way do I believe there was never any alarm bells ringing for them, they just ignored it as they liked the lifestyle. Having ****ty parents is not the kids fault though.

.

[chuff me dizzy]

1.25 onwards ,seriously turns my stomach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJaWSdKKvGU

Opening minute the boy says MJ said " If you love me you will sleep in my bed " and he's NOT a sick paedophile ? Come on folks

[parmnion]

Can we say mothers instead of parents please....because its my understanding that the fathers were not happy at all and filed for custody etc after finding out Michael had been in bed with their child..thank you in advance.