[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Going by their manifesto pledges is nonsense though, assuming that Conservative and especially Labour voters are pro Brexit is just nonsense. There's no way around that. Doing otherwise can only ever be a deliberate attempt to manipulate the figures.

Again, the EU elections showed only very basic things:

1) Still pretty much a 50/50 stalemate on Brexit in general.

2) Nowhere near a majority on wanting no-deal Brexit.

3) People are very unhappy with Conservative and Labour.


All of these attempts to "illustrate" anything other than that, by either side, by doing gymnastics with the figures is just propaganda.

it illustrates what a futile exercise a re-ref would be

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Elliot

But like, they weren’t wrong?

If you, like, take a look at Oliver's post above, it will explain it for you clearly. How pro-Brexit = 42 seats and how anti-Brexit = 24 seats.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Going by their manifesto pledges is nonsense though, assuming that Conservative and especially Labour voters are pro Brexit is just nonsense. There's no way around that. Doing otherwise can only ever be a deliberate attempt to manipulate the figures.

I'm not assuming they are "ideologically" pro-Brexit, but they've committed to honour the result of the referendum.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the worst thing about the vote is 73% could not be bothered to vote

you need to double check your working there young master Trumpet...

(Its 63%)

But yes even then its still pretty sire that 2/3 of the adult population didn't even vote. Also, given that the turnout for the referendum (and any second referendum) or a General Election would definitely be MUCH higher... Using the EU results to assume *anything at all* is pretty sketchy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

you need to double check your working there young master Trumpet...

(Its 63%)

But yes even then its still pretty sire that 2/3 of the adult population didn't even vote. Also, given that the turnout for the referendum (and any second referendum) or a General Election would definitely be MUCH higher... Using the EU results to assume *anything at all* is pretty sketchy.

yes 63 i mean

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I'm not assuming they are "ideologically" pro-Brexit, but they've committed to honour the result of the referendum.

Assuming that those who voted have any idea at all what the party pledges are, which I would say is dubious let's be honest here. A huge chunk of Labour and Tory voters vote Labour and Tory because A) they've always voted for them and B) their parents voted for them.

This was actually exit polled, I might be able to find a link.

But basically people were polled on the reasons that they vote for various parties. In England, the top result by a mile for Brexit Party, Greens, Lib Dems etc was "Their stance on Brexit" or "I'm unhappy with the main party that I usually vote for".

The top result by a mile for both Tory and Labour was "Because I always vote for that party".


Which says a lot in my opinion. To be honest it says a lot about the shambles of modern democracy. Most people too apathetic to vote at all, and then a chunk of those who do vote are so disengaged that they go along out of obligation, and mark a box out of habit.

[Livia]

Maybe some people decided not to vote because, why bother? A democratic vote means hardly anything to a big section of people in this country.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

If you, like, take a look at Oliver's post above, it will explain it for you clearly. How pro-Brexit = 42 seats and how anti-Brexit = 24 seats.

It's 29 "Pro Brexit" and 13 "intentions unknown".

Claiming anything else is disingenuous.

[Vicky.]

Yeah the voting for them because you always have, or because your parents did makes 0 sense to me. I have always voted Labour, but thats because I agreed with their stance on most things. Now that I don't, I won't vore Labour, but have no idea WHO to vote for. I vfoted lib dem in this as it was mainly about brexit, but, in a GE I don't think I would. Voting Labour even though I think they are rubbish at the minute just because I always have, and my parents (and probably grandparents) voted for them is just ridiculous IMO.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe some people decided not to vote because, why bother? A democratic vote means hardly anything to a big section of people in this country.

Of course there are obvious reasons for the apathy and obvious reasons for it being worse than ever (over the last year Parliament has looked nothing short of incompetent)... I personally don't blame anyone for just not wanting to think about it at all, its starting to feel like a waste of time and energy, but isn't that indicative of a pretty huge political crisis?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's 29 "Pro Brexit" and 13 "intentions unknown".

Claiming anything else is disingenuous.

And you don't draw anything from that? Strange.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Of course there are obvious reasons for the apathy and obvious reasons for it being worse than ever (over the last year Parliament has looked nothing short of incompetent)... I personally don't blame anyone for just not wanting to think about it at all, its starting to feel like a waste of time and energy, but isn't that indicative of a pretty huge political crisis?

We needed another indicator of a crisis like we need another hole in the head.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

And you don't draw anything from that? Strange.

I think it's highly unlikely that a re-referendum result would be any different to the first one. Close to 50-50, with no real hope of breaking the political deadlock. No matter what happens this year or next, whether we leave the EU or not, it's a split that's not going to go away any time soon.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe some people decided not to vote because, why bother? A democratic vote means hardly anything to a big section of people in this country.

Ive been surrounded by old people and young people for 4 days now...almost all didn't vote for that reason.

They were mostly snp supporters and Scottish conservative..I would say I've spoken to about 40 to 50 different people who have all said the exact words you just printed....WHY BOTHER.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Ive been surrounded by old people and young people for 4 days now..

What are you up to Parmy

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What are you up to Parmy

I thought it best not to ask... you know Parmy...

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the worst thing about the vote is 73% could not be bothered to vote

It's all pointless really, I don't blame people for feeling disenfranchised when a party stormed the election who didn't even detail their polices and plans. How can you hold a party you voted for accountable if they haven't made any promises? Ignorance is winning. Just say 'brexit' and you'll get a bunch of people who can't think for themselves clapping you on like a bunch of performing seals.

Give the ignorant masses what they want, and, to borrow a quote from GOT, let their joy turn to ashes in their mouths when they have to deal with the reality of what they've demanded. They want to bleed, let them bleed.

[Livia]

This is the only place I have ever experienced where some people actively want to watch others suffer, are looking forward to watching gleefully as others' lives worsen, all because they have a different opinion from them. And this is the same side that think others can't deal with the process of thinking logically and clearly, who are themselves tingling with the anticipation of a disaster just so they can say "I told you so".

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

This is the only place I have ever experienced where some people actively want to watch others suffer, are looking forward to watching gleefully as others' lives worsen, all because they have a different opinion from them. And this is the same side that think others can't deal with the process of thinking logically and clearly, who are themselves tingling with the anticipation of a disaster just so they can say "I told you so".

Is it not more the hope that if people see these things go wrong, they will learn from the mistake and make better choices in future?

Although personally, I think that's an unrealistic dream. People don't change their political stance based on anything like that; they find something else to blame (or are given something else to blame) and continue on feeling as "right" as ever. That applies on all sides. There IS no "hah, see, you were WRONG" when it comes to these things because people can find any number of "reasons" that things aren't as they want it.

Someone is a remainer;

- Brexit is cancelled, things are good in 5 years time? Proof that remaining was right! Things are bad? It's because Britain's image was irreparably damaged by Brexit and it was too late!

- Brexit goes ahead, things are bad in 5 years time? Proof that Brexit was a disaster, it would all be fine had we stayed! Things are going fine and all of the predictions of doom came to nothing? Coincidence, there was an economic upturn for other reasons and we're lucky there was.

Someone is a Brexiteer;

- Brexit goes ahead, things are good. See we were right, Brexit has lead us to a better future! Things are bad? Well, there's still half the country who didn't want Brexit and are sabotaging everything with division, it would be working fine if everyone was united.

- Brexit is cancelled, and now things are economically bad in the UK: DAMN YOU REMAINERS! If you hadn't wrecked Brexit we could have avoided this! Brexit is cancelled and we're thriving within the EU? Well look here guys, the global economy is booming right now and if we weren't tied down by Europe we could have capitalised on that fully.





...basically a very long winded way of showing that no one will ever have to "deal with the reality of their choices". People find evidence that "they were right" no matter what happens, and anything that goes wrong, is because someone else messed up a good thing. So unfortunately Dezzy... if we exit the EU and it's a complete disaster, I absolutely guarantee that no one who voted for Brexit will find themselves suddenly realising that they screwed themselves. It will be the fault of those who made Brexit difficult, or the fault of incompetent politicians signing the wrong deals. Brexit will still have been "definitely the right choice". No one gets to say "told you so".

That's sad, huh.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Livia

This is the only place I have ever experienced where some people actively want to watch others suffer, are looking forward to watching gleefully as others' lives worsen, all because they have a different opinion from them. And this is the same side that think others can't deal with the process of thinking logically and clearly, who are themselves tingling with the anticipation of a disaster just so they can say "I told you so".

+1

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

This is the only place I have ever experienced where some people actively want to watch others suffer, are looking forward to watching gleefully as others' lives worsen, all because they have a different opinion from them. And this is the same side that think others can't deal with the process of thinking logically and clearly, who are themselves tingling with the anticipation of a disaster just so they can say "I told you so".

I see you're still reading my posts although you pretend I'm on ignore. Not quoting me isn't going to do much to act like you aren't clicking on every post I make just to make sure I'm not responding to you.

Stop clutching your pearls in faux outrage and looking down on people because it's utterly hypocritical, I'm fairly certain it would not be difficult for me to pull up posts in which you wish harm on people because you think you're morally correct to do so. I'm not wishing harm on anyone, I just want people to learn that actions have consequences. If people are dumb with their voting then they invite disaster and trying to prevent Brexiters from invoking disaster is becoming increasingly like trying to stop someone trying to put their hand into boiling water.

You combat ignorance through learning and if the only way to teach these people anything is to give them what they want and watch them learn all too late that what they want isn't what they'll get. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, after all.

Give brexiters everything they want, let them bask in Gove's advice of ignoring experts that tell them what they don't want to hear, give them their every whim and see if the reality of it matches the delusion they've been peddling for years. I don't know why you're so mad at me for, I want you to have everything you desire.

[bots]

i blame parliament entirely for the belligerence that has now set in on both sides. If they had just got on and done what they were tasked to do by the ref result, there would be none of the animosity we are now seeing

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i blame parliament entirely for the belligerence that has now set in on both sides. If they had just got on and done what they were tasked to do by the ref result, there would be none of the animosity we are now seeing

The problem was that the referendum result was so vague, though. "Leave the EU" but absolutely no clarification on what that meant, and even Brexiteers are split over whether it means "Hard Brexit" or otherwise... the problem began before the result, in not clarifying the question. Because Cameron and co back then thought they didn't need to, as it would be remain.

[Crimson Dynamo]

anyone heard from Cameron since the vote?

[arista]

Great report on Newsnight, last night,
BBC2HD on the Brexit Party
showing how through Social Media
Nigel Farage got his message across the UK
to get the massive win of 29 Brexit MEP's.
Who start in the first week of July in the EU.

On Twitter
you could watch the Live rallies
for example.