[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Honestly it's two entirely separate debates though. We can briefly acknowledge yes that people in the public eye should be able to go out with friends and family and not have their space & time invaded by fans / the general public... that's fair enough...

...it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it was appropriate for him to touch her thigh as he (wuite clearly IMO) does in the video? AND I'm not even saying that his intent was to cause offense or make her uncomfortable or even necessarily "being a perv" or anything like that and I also don't think this is an example of someone who should now be "cancelled" or face prosecution...

...what it IS, though, is an opportunity to shine a light on what is a very real problem - people not realising that they should keep their hands to themselves. That's all that needs to happen! Some sort of acknowledgement that it's a good idea to respect other people's personal space. And an acknowledgement that while [obligatory appeasement] there are plenty of examples of people invading each other's space... there IS a larger problem with males (especially older males) putting their hands round waists / on legs etc. uninvited. Is it because they don't realise? Is it because they're from "another time" where that was just the norm? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think that "back when it was the norm" it was simply less common for people to admit that it made them uncomfortable, rather than it NOT making them uncomfortable, and now that many people DO admit that over-familiar touch makes them uncomfortable the only sensible and respectable thing for people to do going forward is to stop doing it. WHY is there a backlash against that? I genuinely don't get it. " I'm not allowed to touch strangers on the knee any more and that's my fave!" .

Yeah great post TS, that's it pretty much

[Ammi]

..it also happens less in the reverse for instance...if a woman were to touch a man with familiarity and intimacy ...and then if anything non consensual was attempted etc..?...did she not ‘lead him to misconstrue..’...it really is very difficult for a woman in some situations but the focus is taken back to ‘difficult for men’...it would be nice to address a woman’s perspective without deviating and digressing...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it also happens less in the reverse for instance...if a woman were to touch a man with familiarity and intimacy ...and then if anything non consensual was attempted etc..?...did she not ‘lead him to misconstrue..’...it really is very difficult for a woman in some situations but the focus is taken back to ‘difficult for men’...it would be nice to address a woman’s perspective without deviating and digressing...

The huge difference when these things are surveyed is well worth acknowledging too. Both men and women report having been touched without consent (especially places like bars and clubs). More women report it making them feel uncomfortable than men, though plenty of men report being uncomfortable. The huge difference comes in though when people are asked if they felt threatened or unsafe because of it - or if it decreased their general feelings of safety in public places - with men VERY rarely feeling actually unsafe and women OFTEN being made to feel unsafe. That can't be brushed off. There is a difference and, as uncomfortable as it may be for many men to admit, it simply is a worse situation for women than men.

I've been groped in clubs. I've thought "ffs go away!" on more than one occasion. I have literally never experienced fear or anxiety because of it because realistically, an adult male is not at anywhere near the level of real risk.

What really got me thinking about this was something that happened pretty recently. My wife was on a train back from London on her own that got into Glasgow at 11pm. On the final leg of her journey, there was a table of guys in their mid-20's drinking (probably heading for the clubs) who started trying to talk to her / chat her up / telling her she should come out with them / started getting a bit "jeering" when she politely said no thankyou... and she had to move train carriages / was on the phone to me genuinely scared about being harassed or followed when she got off the train. And she is NOT someone who is easily intimidated. And that got me thinking. Because I've again been in similar situations with groups of drunk women on trains talking to me, and yes there have been times when it's been irritating / unwanted, but again, I have never felt scared or intimidated in that situation for even a second. Because realistically, I'm not at risk. And it's not even that this group of lads is LIKELY to have decided to attack her but the point is that it does happen, it could happen, there is a realistic risk, and they were being blissfully unaware of that in deliberately making her uncomfortable OR even in just not bothering to take care to make sure people around them WEREN'T uncomfortable.

Another fairly recent example was a group of teenage girls asking if they could sit with me at the bus stop late at night (again something like 11pm) in town while I was waiting for the bus after work, because there was drunk middle aged man at the other stance trying to talk to them and generally being a weirdo, again probably not realising he was intimidating them but they were genuinely scared. AGAIN not something I ever experienced... having to feel anxious while just trying to wait for a bus .

Anyway just a few things that helped me to realise that there are some massive differences in these everyday experiences for men and women and it's easy for men to saunter through blissfully unaware of these scenarios or declaring very valid fears as "unrealistic" or "over the top".

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The huge difference when these things are surveyed is well worth acknowledging too. Both men and women report having been touched without consent (especially places like bars and clubs). More women report it making them feel uncomfortable than men, though plenty of men report being uncomfortable. The huge difference comes in though when people are asked if they felt threatened or unsafe because of it - or if it decreased their general feelings of safety in public places - with men VERY rarely feeling actually unsafe and women OFTEN being made to feel unsafe. That can't be brushed off. There is a difference and, as uncomfortable as it may be for many men to admit, it simply is a worse situation for women than men.

I've been groped in clubs. I've thought "ffs go away!" on more than one occasion. I have literally never experienced fear or anxiety because of it because realistically, an adult male is not at anywhere near the level of real risk.

What really got me thinking about this was something that happened pretty recently. My wife was on a train back from London on her own that got into Glasgow at 11pm. On the final leg of her journey, there was a table of guys in their mid-20's drinking (probably heading for the clubs) who started trying to talk to her / chat her up / telling her she should come out with them / started getting a bit "jeering" when she politely said no thankyou... and she had to move train carriages / was on the phone to me genuinely scared about being harassed or followed when she got off the train. And she is NOT someone who is easily intimidated. And that got me thinking. Because I've again been in similar situations with groups of drunk women on trains talking to me, and yes there have been times when it's been irritating / unwanted, but again, I have never felt scared or intimidated in that situation for even a second. Because realistically, I'm not at risk. And it's not even that this group of lads is LIKELY to have decided to attack her but the point is that it does happen, it could happen, there is a realistic risk, and they were being blissfully unaware of that in deliberately making her uncomfortable OR even in just not bothering to take care to make sure people around them WEREN'T uncomfortable.

Another fairly recent example was a group of teenage girls asking if they could sit with me at the bus stop late at night (again something like 11pm) in town while I was waiting for the bus after work, because there was drunk middle aged man at the other stance trying to talk to them and generally being a weirdo, again probably not realising he was intimidating them but they were genuinely scared. AGAIN not something I ever experienced... having to feel anxious while just trying to wait for a bus .

Anyway just a few things that helped me to realise that there are some massive differences in these everyday experiences for men and women and it's easy for men to saunter through blissfully unaware of these scenarios or declaring very valid fears as "unrealistic" or "over the top".

..I’m so sorry that Mrs TS was made to feel so vulnerable.....and that’s the thing really as with the girls at the bus stop...I think most females have been in those situations of vulnerability before at some point in their lives at least once but for many, several times...
whereas as you say...many men will never experience ...and it’s something that really does need addressing in society...and women will be often judged by other women also as a knee jerk ‘in the wrong’ without all facts being known etc...anyways, you obviously were a ‘safety’ to those young girls and that’s lovely and very much needed.....and you have daughters so you will give these things the much thought needed...

[LeatherTrumpet]

thats grand TS and it dawns on most men that women will feel far more intimidated in certain situations as you describe but that has got diddly squat to do with this farcical situation - what is does relate to is:

I am amazed that no one has mentioned the man (the partner of the accuser?) who gyrates his cock in front of the accused GF - a much more aggressive and intimidating action??

[chuff me dizzy]

The woman's boyfriend and 2 of his mates surround Cuba ,he must have felt very intimidated ,the more I watch the video the more convinced this was all planned

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

thats grand TS and it dawns on most men that women will feel far more intimidated in certain situations as you describe but that has got diddly squat to do with this farcical situation - what is does relate to is:

I am amazed that no one has mentioned the man (the partner of the accuser?) who gyrates his cock in front of the accused GF - a much more aggressive and intimidating action??

I think TS story is just highlighting a wider debate on the subject really, there's not a whole lot more to say on the Cuba Gooding story without more information/knowing what was being said in the video etc etc

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I am amazed that no one has mentioned the man (the partner of the accuser?) who gyrates his cock in front of the accused GF - a much more aggressive and intimidating action??

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's not affection in my opinion, it looks like fairly clear lowkey aggression / dominance assertion behaviour and I think if you could hear the exchange it would be very "tense".

I don't think you read the whole thread before that bold "no one has..." claim LT.

To be clear it doesn't look like anyone in this situation was exactly at their most admirable but literally NONE of that cancels out the fact that there's a valid discussion to be had about people keeping their hands to themselves. An awful lot of "but, but, but".

[Ammi]

...whatever anyone else was doing...none of it takes away from the fact that Cuba has been accused of something because of his own actions, no one else’s...

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think you read the whole thread before that bold "no one has..." claim LT.

To be clear it doesn't look like anyone in this situation was exactly at their most admirable but literally NONE of that cancels out the fact that there's a valid discussion to be had about people keeping their hands to themselves. An awful lot of "but, but, but".

Yes but TS you need to then qualify and say that if a man who is attractive to a woman (and other way around) say touches her arm lightly this is seen as very desirable and an indication of attraction.

If some guy who he/she does not find attractive its creepy

Its also very very country specific and an Indian man would see touching in a totally different light and that is just beween 2 men.


i mean look at this: https://www.aol.co.uk/living/2016/08...806bvQkgNLuxd5


grey lines

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I have no idea why he would touch her at all to speak to her...why the necessity to put a hand on her thigh or anywhere else to enable him to have a conversation or whatever...I don’t though see on any of the vids..(..some are a little longer..)...where she pushed his hand away from her thigh...

But fans get touchy feely with celebrities all the time, security have to pull them away it gets so bad . I don't see any harassment in the video with Cuba Gooding ,but as I said the potato footage isn't the best .