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View Poll Results: Which is more illegitimate?
Donald Trump becoming President despite receiving less public votes 5 50.00%
Remainers trying to stop Brexit 4 40.00%
Both as illegitimate as each other 0 0%
Both as legitimate as each other 1 10.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 22-11-2019, 01:03 AM   #1
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Default A question for TIBB?

Admittedly you might think that this question is silly (it probably is tbf) but do you think that it's undemocratic if Brexit doesn't happen? And if so then what is your opinion of Donald Trump being President despite having less votes than Hilary Clinton? Do you think it's just as undemocratic as cancelling Brexit, more undemocratic than cancelling Brexit? Or more Democratic than cancelling Brexit?

I ask this question because I personally tend to catch quite a few people in this country moan about "remainers stopping Brexit from happening which is undemocratic as the people voted for it" which to some extent I understand the thinking behind that, but then in the same breath if you ask some (not all I know) of these Brexiters what they think of Donald Trump they'll say that they like him and it's "Who the people want" when it's factually incorrect as he received 3 million votes less than Hilary Clinton at the Presidential Election.

It's not meant as a witch hunt btw if it comes across that way, I'm genuinely curious as to why Brexiters (on average) are more okay with Trump being President of the United States against the people's wishes. And why the Remainers (Again on average) tend to be more okay with cancelling Brexit despite the majority of the UK voting for it? Speaking for myself I'm not happy that NI and Scotland are being forced to leave the EU against their will, I personally believe that if all of the UK countries are equal then NI and Scotland should've been allowed to veto the idea of leaving the EU imo as it's a dramatic change being forced on them against their will. Also I've not been convinced yet that Brexit will be good for the working class of the UK either, but I hope to be wrong like I usually am on these things.

And unlike General Elections, if Brexit does go wrong we can't after 4 or 5 years just change our minds and go back to the way things were, where as imo the USA could've let the people have what they wanted and then if Hilary wasn't working out the American people could've then voted her out when she was trying for her second term.

I apologise for the extremely long post, and I know that anything to do with Brexit has probably gone around in circles at this point. But I am curious to know if anyone agrees with me about Brexit vs Donald Trump's illegitimate Presidency imo.

Poll will be coming shortly?
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Old 22-11-2019, 08:46 AM   #2
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Honestly I think they're as legit as each other.

The voting system in the USA was specifically designed so that the Presidency wouldn't be chosen by two or three of the most populated states. I'm not saying the system is good, I'm saying it does what it's designed to. Presidents have been losing the popular vote since the 1820s.

As for Brexit, while more information is available now than it was a few years back, and it's been nearly as long as a parliamentary term since the vote happened. People can try to stop anything they disagree with.
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Old 22-11-2019, 08:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_W View Post
Honestly I think they're as legit as each other.

The voting system in the USA was specifically designed so that the Presidency wouldn't be chosen by two or three of the most populated states. I'm not saying the system is good, I'm saying it does what it's designed to. Presidents have been losing the popular vote since the 1820s.

As for Brexit, while more information is available now than it was a few years back, and it's been nearly as long as a parliamentary term since the vote happened. People can try to stop anything they disagree with.
not much more to say than ^^^
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:35 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Oliver_W View Post
Honestly I think they're as legit as each other.

The voting system in the USA was specifically designed so that the Presidency wouldn't be chosen by two or three of the most populated states. I'm not saying the system is good, I'm saying it does what it's designed to. Presidents have been losing the popular vote since the 1820s.

As for Brexit, while more information is available now than it was a few years back, and it's been nearly as long as a parliamentary term since the vote happened. People can try to stop anything they disagree with.
The voting system in the US was designed to give slave owners in the south disproportionate power.
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:40 AM   #5
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Great question mock I'm not sure how presidential elections work fully if I'm honest.
There could have it seems been a hand in both elections which of coursevmakes them both wholly undemocratic.
The people have the right to change their mind even after a vote imo.
Look at if you bought a car, and you're asked to sign a sales agreement, but the dealer refused to provide you with the copy of the terms and conditions and recipt they had and then ripped them up. Would you still keep the car?
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:42 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Kizzy View Post
Great question mock I'm not sure how presidential elections work fully if I'm honest.
There could have it seems been a hand in both elections which of coursevmakes them both wholly undemocratic.
The people have the right to change their mind even after a vote imo.
Look at if you bought a car, and you're asked to sign a sales agreement, but the dealer refused to provide you with the copy of the terms and conditions and recipt they had and then ripped them up. Would you still keep the car?
did you say this after the scottish referendum , i cant recall?
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:43 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper View Post
The voting system in the US was designed to give slave owners in the south disproportionate power.
now the south financially they are at a huge disadvantage, money talks

Last edited by LeatherTrumpet; 22-11-2019 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:46 AM   #8
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now the south financially they are at a huge disadvantage, money talks
Not sure I get what you mean.
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet View Post
did you say this after the scottish referendum , i cant recall?
Well that's another dupe to me the Scots at the time had no knowledge that brexit was imminent, so to me they are within their rights to ask for another referendum.
However as a Labour supporter I would prefer the UK to stay whole and tackle the issues we all face together.
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper View Post
The voting system in the US was designed to give slave owners in the south disproportionate power.
The Southern states have higher populations, so they technically have less voting power now,funny how that worked out
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:02 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet View Post
now the south financially they are at a huge disadvantage, money talks
It's like how people claim "the USA was built on slavery" when slavery was more common in the states which took longer to develop than the rest.
I mean, it's no surprise that areas knuckle-dragging enough to keep slaves couldn't effectively do stuff.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:03 AM   #12
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...have you seen The Big Hack, Mock..?...I’m not sure how democratically selected, Trump was....
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:07 AM   #13
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Trump won the election and the fundamental rules were accepted by all sides before the event. You can't then change the rules when you don't like the result. The same applies to the brexit vote.

Cheating and manipulation of the systems are a different issue
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by bitontheslide View Post
Trump won the election and the fundamental rules were accepted by all sides before the event. You can't then change the rules when you don't like the result. The same applies to the brexit vote.

Cheating and manipulation of the systems are a different issue
agreed its a rather misleading comparison if indeed any comparison could be drawn. I expect the poll will just be a do you like Trump poll?
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:18 AM   #15
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Trump won the election and the fundamental rules were accepted by all sides before the event. You can't then change the rules when you don't like the result. The same applies to the brexit vote.

Cheating and manipulation of the systems are a different issue
...but you can’t change the rules to determine the result either, though...it has to be equally applied...and if there was ‘cheating and manipulation’ which led to the result, then the whole thing of democracy wouldn’t apply...
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:25 AM   #16
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...but you can’t change the rules to determine the result either, though...it has to be equally applied...and if there was ‘cheating and manipulation’ which led to the result, then the whole thing of democracy wouldn’t apply...
Roger Stone - one of trumps guys was sent to prison the other day for lying to congress about coordinating with wiki leaks to reveal stolen democratic emails. A point that trump also lied about in his testimony to mueller.

Vote leave also took part in some nefarious practices, for which both gove and Johnson are under investigation for.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:27 AM   #17
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Roger Stone - one of trumps guys was sent to prison the other day for lying to congress about coordinating with wiki leaks to reveal stolen democratic emails. A point that trump also lied about in his testimony to mueller.

Vote leave also took part in some nefarious practices, for which both gove and Johnson are under investigation for.
...you really must watch The Big Hack, it’s very thought provoking on ‘democracy’...
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:32 AM   #18
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...you really must watch The Big Hack, it’s very thought provoking on ‘democracy’...
The great hack? I'll try and give it a watch over the weekend.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:33 AM   #19
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The great hack? I'll try and give it a watch over the weekend.
...yeah, The Great Hack.....(..it was big as well...)...
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:36 AM   #20
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...yeah, The Great Hack.....(..it was big as well...)...
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Old 22-11-2019, 08:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Kizzy View Post
Great question mock I'm not sure how presidential elections work fully if I'm honest.
There could have it seems been a hand in both elections which of coursevmakes them both wholly undemocratic.
The people have the right to change their mind even after a vote imo.
Look at if you bought a car, and you're asked to sign a sales agreement, but the dealer refused to provide you with the copy of the terms and conditions and recipt they had and then ripped them up. Would you still keep the car?
Thanks.

I'm not up on all of it either, I just know that Donald Trump received 3 million votes less than Hilary yet is President of the United States.

And no I wouldn't keep the car in that scenario.
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Old 22-11-2019, 08:11 PM   #22
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...have you seen The Big Hack, Mock..?...I’m not sure how democratically selected, Trump was....
No I haven't, is it a Documentary? I will check it out at some point anyway.

Thanks for recommending it to me Ammi.
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Old 22-11-2019, 08:35 PM   #23
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Overturning Brexit without a new vote would be undemocratic. Having a new vote when so much time has passed wouldn't be undemocratic in the slightest and I feel that when people start crowing that it is, or that we would then have "vote after vote!", they're being disingenuous.

The situation with Brexit isn't really comparable with US presidential elections, because of fixed terms. They are by definition repeated votes on a temporary situation. Is it undemocratic that a candidate can lost the popular vote and still become president? Not inherently. Its obviously not pure democracy. But it is a form of democracy, and they're openly the established rules of the system, and people can campaign to change the voting system...
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:44 PM   #24
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Trump winning the Presidential election wasn't undemocratic despite winning fewer overall votes because that is the system that's been agreed upon, and has always been used and one that will continue to be used.

Others know better what the historical reasons for it are, but the system takes into account that America is a collection of differing states and not one big whole thing. Under a popular vote system the four biggest states (California, Texas, New York and Florida) would practically decide every election, as 1/3 of the US population lives in those states.

Cancelling the Brexit result would be seen as undemocratic (although not illegal - the normal way the country is run is by MPs making laws) because it was expected at the time of the referendum that the outcome of it would be implemented. The same is true of a replay of the referendum - you having another go at it without the government having put the result of the first one into effect.

Many Leave voters will see it has having the odds against Leave. If you toss a coin once it is a 1 in 2 chance you get a Heads - if you toss it twice the odds of a Heads increases to 2 in 3. (If you have a third it increases to 7 in 8).

If another referendum happens and does deliver a Remain result, I can see the argument being made a lot that the scores in referendum is now 1-1 so why not have a third decider.

It would be better to implement the Leave result of the 2016 referendum, but find a compromise Leave position where the country still leaves but maintains close ties to the EU.

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Old 23-11-2019, 07:24 AM   #25
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No I haven't, is it a Documentary? I will check it out at some point anyway.

Thanks for recommending it to me Ammi.
...it’s The Great Hack, Mock...and I think it’s on Netflix atm..
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