[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not telling you what to think or what your opinions should be - but you're not saying that you are insulted by it, or that you find it offensive, you're stating as fact that it IS inherently insulting and offensive in an attempt to shame people out of doing it. There's one person here trying to shut down opinion and dictate "appropriate conversation" Livia, and it certainly isn't me. I fully accept your right to find these comparisons and conversations difficult and offensive. I don't accept your attempts to shame other people out of having those conversations, and making those comparisons.

You also, presumably, know fine well that comparison and pointing out precedent in no way involves suggesting equivalency? That pointing out that there are valid comparisons to be made between current global politics and early-20th-century politics (which seems undeniable, to me) is not in the slightest the same thing as saying they're identical, nor is it an attempt to argue that Trump is identical to Hitler. The "comparison = equivalence" counter arguments are usually a strawman tactic employed by people who find the comparison confronting or uncomfortable.

I can compare apples to oranges, pears, plums, carrots, and small red family hatchbacks whilst acknowledging that none of them are the same thing.

You're in law. You understand that. You know that pointing out precedent in a previous case is not a claim that two cases are identical.
Why do you keep pretending that you're mystified by the concept?

Patronising.

You don't need a Jew in these threads, especially not one who's connected with Israel in any way. It just spoils the party.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Patronising.



You don't need a Jew in these threads, especially not one who's connected with Israel in any way. It just spoils the party.

You not wanting to have a discussion because you either don't have a response, or most likely just can't be bothered, doesn't make me patronising. It's fine that you don't want a discussion. You could just say so.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by arista

Crazy
you are deluded

He's either trolling or doesn't know any better, no-one could reasonably think the two men are comparable, stop getting your knickers in a twist

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Anyone who knows anything about German history, not just WW2/Hitler but the class divides and rising tensions that lead into both WW's, can make clear and distinct comparisons to the current class war (and it is primarily a class war, not a race war) that has been bubbling up in the US (and in slightly different ways, the UK) in recent years. The comparisons are there to be made. Not to the war and Nazi rule itself, but to the socioeconomic conditions that people with other agendas exploited in order to gain positions of power and influence, and encourage the compliance, that made those atrocities possible.

Hm, if class strife was present in both world wars and the current day, maybe it's just a crappy part of society which has been there for a long time, and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon?

People with power have always exploited it, and those being exploited have always resented it. I don't know when or if that'll change, but it doesn't mean modern day America (or UK) is similar to ore-WW2 Germany

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

He's either trolling or doesn't know any better, no-one could reasonably think the two men are comparable, stop getting your knickers in a twist

Again confusing comparable with equatable. Any two figures are comparable. As a comparison would involve noting how two things are dissimilar, as well as similar. You can compare a tangerine to the sun, if you want. One is hotter than the other. One is bigger than the other. They're both round, they're both orange. Yes you could point out that these are understatements, but they are nonetheless comparisons. You could point out that the sun isn't actually orange, that's a misunderstanding. All part of the debate.

Hm, if class strife was present in both world wars and the current day, maybe it's just a crappy part of society which has been there for a long time, and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon?



People with power have always exploited it, and those being exploited have always resented it. I don't know when or if that'll change, but it doesn't mean modern day America (or UK) is similar to ore-WW2 Germany

Trump has utilised the division to gain a passionate following, and there are some worrying trends in the way he's trying to control the democratic process, media, and that following's anger to further his own prejudices. There are obvious differences in scope, too. I'd argue that some of that is more to do with his ability to push for his darker impulses. Thus far the US system has held up in many ways.

All of which would be an interesting discussion and comparison, but that's automatically "not OK" apparently. I get it when it's a lazy comparison, but it also invalidates a discussion that's worth having.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Trump has utilised the division to gain a passionate following, and there are some worrying trends in the way he's trying to control the democratic process, media, and that following's anger to further his own prejudices. There are obvious differences in scope, too. I'd argue that some of that is more to do with his ability to push for his darker impulses. Thus far the US system has held up in many ways.

All of which would be an interesting discussion and comparison, but that's automatically "not OK" apparently. I get it when it's a lazy comparison, but it also invalidates a discussion that's worth having.

I agree there's a discussion to be had, but it often just boils down to "he's a racist with concentration camps!!111" and it ends there, and if that's the depth of the argument it's a bit silly. But when it comes to things like his attempts to manipulate the media and widen existing societal divides, that's more worth it.

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I agree there's a discussion to be had, but it often just boils down to "he's a racist with concentration camps!!111" and it ends there, and if that's the depth of the argument it's a bit silly. But when it comes to things like his attempts to manipulate the media and widen existing societal divides, that's more worth it.

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?

"Comparing Trump to Hitler is giving him too much credit" isn't quite what I meant, btw

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?

That part I agree on, Trump is more of a lightning rod for a certain mindset than a mastermind who is manipulating that mindset in any sort of organised way. He is capitalising on it in broad, obvious strokes.

[bots]

Trump doesn't believe in anything other than himself, he doesn't have any political motives other than to feather his own nest

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I agree there's a discussion to be had, but it often just boils down to "he's a racist with concentration camps!!111" and it ends there, and if that's the depth of the argument it's a bit silly. But when it comes to things like his attempts to manipulate the media and widen existing societal divides, that's more worth it.

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?

Trumps former Chief of Staff John Kelly was a retired four star General in the US Marine Corp. Many thought he'd bring disicipline to the white House. We now know even he failed to bring any kind of order to Trumps world. Trump works on his own instincts and not much els. Considering how poorly informed he is its makes him even scarier. Trumps only puppet master is Putin, there are no cleverer people pulling the strings.