[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...oops, I didn’t see you post, I must have been (...slowly...)...typing...

That's alright, wouldn't have liked to have missed the Joni Mitchell song anyway

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Thank you Ammi

.....I wish I had always had and could have your wisdom, Liam...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's alright, wouldn't have liked to have missed the Joni Mitchell song anyway

...us ladies and our Joni, eh......I’m erasing all males of having her heart and soul and that’s that of that...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

that was my recollection and I’m sure, often Vicky’s recollection as well and sometimes, Niamh’s even, maybe...

Yes I was guilty of a few of the things I'm now criticising, which I regret. Well, just using "transphobic" a bit liberally I suppose, I don't THINK I called anyone a hag ... ... Niamh definitely took some very undeserved flak.

.........I do still lowkey think that Vicky had drank a little TOO much of the Mumsnet Kool-aid though . That place is a horror show and definitely often the "flipside" of the extreme rhetoric when it comes to this discussion.

[LeatherTrumpet]

TS you called much loved children's author JK Rowling a hag

[LeatherTrumpet]

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

TS you called much loved children's author JK Rowling a hag

It was sarcasm LT.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes I was guilty of a few of the things I'm now criticising, which I regret. Well, just using "transphobic" a bit liberally I suppose, I don't THINK I called anyone a hag ... ... Niamh definitely took some very undeserved flak.

.........I do still lowkey think that Vicky had drank a little TOO much of the Mumsnet Kool-aid though . That place is a horror show and definitely often the "flipside" of the extreme rhetoric when it comes to this discussion.

...well that was a quick refreshment break.....I guess what I was trying to say..(...and very badly tends to be my way...)...is that, having yourself...walked in Liams walk and thought in Liam’s thoughts etc...?...and being in that unique position, more than anyone else in the thread, I would say...?...in terms of thought rearrangement ...(...for me...)... it was important to express that in complete understanding and compassion as well...’well I once leaned more to that but my thoughts now are...’...etc, etc...I mean, that is the main essential ingredient to that much needed discussion recipe...

...right, we really are on a break, TS...because I have stuff to do and I’m too easily distracted atm...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...right, we really are on a break, TS...

[Niamh.]

Also, one of my cousins lives in Oregon and one of her daughters is a fantastic athlete. She will be looking to get a scholarship to a College next year based on this, my mother was telling me this at the weekend and my first thought was, I hope for her sake they don't have any boys suddenly identifying as girls competing with her. I know Oregon has laws allowing this so it's a very real possibility.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Also, one of my cousins lives in Oregon and one of her daughters is a fantastic athlete. She will be looking to get a scholarship to a College next year based on this, my mother was telling me this at the weekend and my first thought was, I hope for her sake they don't have any boys suddenly identifying as girls competing with her. I know Oregon has laws allowing this so it's a very real possibility.

It is a very complicated situation in US higher education because of sports scholarships being so huge and so important, and higher education being so expensive. I don't just wonder "if" some males would disingenuously identify as trans "temporarily" in their late teens in order to secure a sports scholarship (if half decent but not good enough to secure one in the male sport) - I think it's flat-out inevitable and even, to an extent, understandable that they'd consider it.

That said, I personally think the main issue there is more to do with the US higher education system, the ridiculous amount of money involved in college sport, sky high tuition fees, and lucrative sports scholarships in general. The whole thing is an unhealthy mess, but baked right into American education culture (I mean, how many teen films and TV shows has the "pressure of the big sports scholarship" featured in?)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It is a very complicated situation in US higher education because of sports scholarships being so huge and so important, and higher education being so expensive. I don't just wonder "if" some males would disingenuously identify as trans "temporarily" in their late teens in order to secure a sports scholarship (if half decent but not good enough to secure one in the male sport) - I think it's flat-out inevitable and even, to an extent, understandable that they'd consider it.

That said, I personally think the main issue there is more to do with the US higher education system, the ridiculous amount of money involved in college sport, sky high tuition fees, and lucrative sports scholarships in general. The whole thing is an unhealthy mess, but baked right into American education culture (I mean, how many teen films and TV shows has the "pressure of the big sports scholarship" featured in?)

Of course that's also an issue but it's a separate one imo and should be another topic of debate entirely. This imo should fall into the same topic of sex based categories in sports for fairness and for safety (depending on the sport) Gender identity should not trump sex in the biological sense when it comes to sport

[Liam-]

Is there any evidence to back up this theory that young men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women’s sport?

[LeatherTrumpet]

there was that runner in SOuth Africa I recall

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Is there any evidence to back up this theory that young men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women’s sport?

with all due respect Liam, in this case it doesn't even matter if a biological male is genuinely trans or pretending, either way they will have a physical advantage over women, if that wasn't true there would never have been a need to have sex based categories in the first place

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

with all due respect Liam, in this case it doesn't even matter if a biological male is genuinely trans or pretending, either way they will have a physical advantage over women, if that wasn't true there would never have been a need to have sex based categories in the first place

So you would oppose a post op trans woman taking part in women’s events all together?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Is there any evidence to back up this theory that young men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women’s sport?

It's framed as opinion and hypothesis; the fact that a sports scholarship is the only path for people to access the best University facilities in the US and avoid six-figure tuition fees makes it incredibly likely that people would do literally anything necessary. The issue isn't having an opinion, the issue is seeking to influence policy based on emotion rather than unbiased research by - again - not allowing that research to be done, and deeming the pursuit of that knowledge "offensive".

The point, though, is that assuming that it WON'T happen is the only part that is dangerous and discriminatory against women, because the elephant in the room is that biological males are better sportspeople than women. I don't think genuine transwomen should be able to participate in women's sport. It is an unfair biological advantage and there is abundant evidence of that... it's just something that has to be accepted as part of being trans, at the end of the day. And what a ****ty situation for women in general? Having to repeatedly say "OK listen, we simply don't have the strength or speed to compete with biological males". Women at the top of their sport being forced out because it is a simple biological fact that if transwomen are in female sport, all of the top contenders will be trans. It's not even a question. They will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd and they will secure all of the adacemic sports scholarships for physical sport.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No product is exclusively for anyone.. why is the focus on this where is the uproar for the definition of 'male' condoms?

You are quite frankly coming across as sexist in this thread as not once have you acknowledged that the backlash to this isn't predominantly from born women.

I consider your attitude cruel, unwarranted and biased

If the product is not exclusively for females, why are people adamant that the packaging must say females? “I know it’s not for females, but I want it to say females because I use it and I’m a female and **** the men that use it”? Is literally what this translates to. Which I knew all along I suppose lol.

Honestly I can’t imagine many people would give a single **** if they removed the word ‘male’ from condoms. But I can’t imagine caring over something so petty in the first place

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

People are looking for an actual debate/discussion on this topic Withano... Save the arrogant, dumbed-down, stonewallish "the sooner people realise the right way to think about this the better" dogmatic nonsense and mantras, pearl-clutching and faux outrage for social media. You're not going to stop anyone here from speaking their mind by calling them "petty and cruel" for simply having questions and counter-opinions. You do realise that by now, surely? You've strolled into the wrong saloon, pard'ner. You don't have a twitter army to hashtag in for a pile on... What gave you the impression that twitter ad hominem are of any use here whatsoever?

I’ve never used twitter in my life and I can’t make much sense of whatever you’re trying to say. It comes down to people getting upset over transmen (very specifically transmen) being included in something that they always shared with females and people not liking that. It’s transphobia.

I don’t think there should be a second opinion or debate on transphobia in the same way there shouldn’t be a debate on whether some aspects of racism is okay. It’s not.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

So you would oppose a post op trans woman taking part in women’s events all together?

I can't speak for Niamh but to reiterate, there is no "fair" way for any transwoman to participate in a physical sport against biological females, unless they started taking hormone blockers years before the onset of puberty (at around age 9 or 10), and that is an ethical nightmare in the making.

Basing it on current testosterone levels is over-simplistic, people who have undergone male puberty are likely to have a different bone structure, different body composition, and higher muscle density than a biological female and there's (currently, I guess?) just no way around that. If any one of the top 300-or-so male tennis players in the world transitions to female (and I'm not saying disingenuously - if they were genuinely trans) and took hormones and had reassignment surgery etc... there is a very high likelihood that on entering the women's sport, they would dominate every grand slam. Of course, they would also probably be physically unable to compete in the men's sport at competition level after hormone replacement. It's a situation that sucks but it just is the situation, and people wanting everything to be perfect is unrealistic and (to be blunt) selfish. It would be great for transwomen to be able to participate in female sport. It would be devastating for biologically female sportspeople.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

So you would oppose a post op trans woman taking part in women’s events all together?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's framed as opinion and hypothesis; the fact that a sports scholarship is the only path for people to access the best University facilities in the US and avoid six-figure tuition fees makes it incredibly likely that people would do literally anything necessary. The issue isn't having an opinion, the issue is seeking to influence policy based on emotion rather than unbiased research by - again - not allowing that research to be done, and deeming the pursuit of that knowledge "offensive".

The point, though, is that assuming that it WON'T happen is the only part that is dangerous and discriminatory against women, because the elephant in the room is that biological males are better sportspeople than women. I don't think genuine transwomen should be able to participate in women's sport. It is an unfair biological advantage and there is abundant evidence of that... it's just something that has to be accepted as part of being trans, at the end of the day. And what a ****ty situation for women in general? Having to repeatedly say "OK listen, we simply don't have the strength or speed to compete with biological males". Women at the top of their sport being forced out because it is a simple biological fact that if transwomen are in female sport, all of the top contenders will be trans. It's not even a question. They will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd and they will secure all of the adacemic sports scholarships for physical sport.

Yes what TS said basically Liam. It's unfortunate but unavoidable imo

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

I’ve never used twitter in my life and I can’t make much sense of whatever you’re trying to say. It comes down to people getting upset over transmen (very specifically transmen) being included in something that they always shared with females and people not liking that. It’s transphobia.

I don’t think there should be a second opinion or debate on transphobia in the same way there shouldn’t be a debate on whether some aspects of racism is okay. It’s not.

Oh you don't think? You're in the wrong forum section then. You not wanting it to be a debate or discussion doesn't mean it isn't one or won't continue to be one, and that attitude is basically 90% of the problem. I don't like dogma, groupthink and black-and-white blinkeredness so you can continue to "not think there should be a discussion" but I have literally nothing to say about that, other than that there's going to be a discussion regardless.

[Niamh.]

Just back to the actual original topic, have a look at this survey and tell me women aren't being erased though, everyone has a category except us, we're "other"

(the 3rd page you get to)
https://talktotdaye.typeform.com/to/vgaLcdYj
I am This question is required. *
If you don't identify with any of the below or you do and you'd like to expand on these terms please click other and state/describe.

A
A Man

B
A Transgender Man
C
Gender Nonconforming
D
Non-Binary
E
Intersex
F
Other

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Just back to the actual original topic, have a look at this survey and tell me women aren't being erased though, everyone has a category except us, we're "other"

(the 3rd page you get to)
https://talktotdaye.typeform.com/to/vgaLcdYj
I am This question is required. *
If you don't identify with any of the below or you do and you'd like to expand on these terms please click other and state/describe.

A
A Man

B
A Transgender Man
C
Gender Nonconforming
D
Non-Binary
E
Intersex
F
Other

To be fair, having gone through it a bit more I think it's a survey designed to be given to people who have periods but don't identify as female, specifically.

Als o one of the questions is "How young are you?". Is this also a thing now? Is it taboo to ask someone how old they are?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair, having gone through it a bit more I think it's a survey designed to be given to people who have periods but don't identify as female, specifically.

Als o one of the questions is "How young are you?". Is this also a thing now? Is it taboo to ask someone how old they are?

It says it's a survey designed for "people who menstruate"

"We're hearing from people who menstruate and learning about different experiences of menstruation. This is an anonymous questionnaire, and with your consent, your response may be published in a collection on our blog Vitals."