[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Nah, anyone that’s big enough to feel comfortable starting violence should be big and comfortable enough to expect it back

This outlook is childish and I personally don't feel like (or that I should have to) shy away from saying that. Really ridiculous.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This outlook is childish and I personally don't feel like (or that I should have to) shy away from saying that. Really ridiculous.

That’s your opinion and I respect that

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Sure, shout him down. Call him names back. That's as far as it should go.

I agree, everyone on the bus should have been giving him a mouthful and/or telling him that he was massively out of line. As soon as he started getting physically violent the bus should have been stopped, and the police called. Again I know that's "ideal world" stuff and again I understand WHY those men lost control and lashed out at him, I'm not condemning the action, I'm just also never going to condone it.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Punching a weak old man is worse than using bad words, maybe they can take each other to court?

In terms of a court sentences yes.

But most arguments and violence starts with people exchanging words insults

You don’t know the person you are arguing with and in turn don’t know what they will do.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Nah, anyone that’s big enough to feel comfortable starting violence should be big and comfortable enough to expect it back

Would you say the same about a gobby little ten year old who thinks he's a hardman? Because that old man is about as threatening.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Would you say the same about a gobby little ten year old who thinks he's a hardman? Because that old man is about as threatening.

No Oliver, I wouldn’t condone adults attacking children, we’re talking about adults here

[Josy]

The guy was a racist prick.

Violence is never the solution to anything though. It should never be applauded or encouraged.

[LeatherTrumpet]

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst

Then what?

[Josy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst



Then what?

Someone suffering with alzheimers or a serious mental health problem wouldnt be on a bus alone

[Liam-]

Alzheimer’s doesn’t cause racism either

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Alzheimer’s doesn’t cause racism either

Actually any form of dementia can cause serious loss of inhibition which is often displayed as insults, sexism, racism etc

But that's neither here nor there relating to this thread.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Josy

Someone suffering with alzheimers or a serious mental health problem wouldnt be on a bus alone

Often they wander off, my dad used to get down the town when he wasn't to get out the house.

He was in m and s not shouting "monkeys" on busses, I will add

[Swan]

In a sense it's a shame the two guys reacted with violence, had they just let him be, there wouldn't be a debate about whether they acted appropriately and all the attention would be on the racist old man.

I kinda feel it's hard to have too much of an opinion when it all happened in the heat of the moment. It's fair to say violence is never the answer (which is true) but emotions must have been all over the place. Anger, frustration, upset. They didn't handle it the right way, but yeah i can sympathise with the situation they were put in.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Josy

Actually any form of dementia can cause serious loss of inhibition which is often displayed as insults, sexism, racism etc

But that's neither here nor there relating to this thread.

Lack of inhibition yes, which means they’re more likely to say how they feel or what’s on their mind, it wouldn’t create a thought that wasn’t already there I don’t think

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No Oliver, I wouldn’t condone adults attacking children, we’re talking about adults here

All adults aren't equal, they were clearly much stronger than him and had no need to physically retaliate.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Lack of inhibition yes, which means they’re more likely to say how they feel or what’s on their mind, it wouldn’t create a thought that wasn’t already there I don’t think

Well you would be wrong thinking that then because it actually does create thoughts that the person wouldnt normally have.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Lack of inhibition yes, which means they’re more likely to say how they feel or what’s on their mind, it wouldn’t create a thought that wasn’t already there I don’t think

I know you're not saying that it would be justifiable for people to start punching elderly people with dementia "because they were clearly still racist beforehand". At the very least, draw the line there. Surely.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have to ask something here Ammi, I'm afraid. If, in the context of school children, a child was racially abusing another child... would you then take no action if that child turned around and punched them in the face (hard enough to give them multiple contusions)?

Would you take no action if the other kid hit first?

Would you take no action, even if the kid being abusive was a known and persistent bully?

I'm hoping and assuming that the answer to all of those, is that physical violence is never the appropriate response. That defending yourself is OK if someone won't get off of you, for example, is OK but if someone hits you and runs away... you tell someone, you don't chase after them and hit them back.

And assuming all of those things (and I really do hope I'm right, that a teacher wouldn't ever justify children carrying out physical retaliation)..

WHY on earth would it be OK for grown adults to engage in unnecessary physical retaliation?

I'm not talking about empathy here; of course you might understand why a kid would hit back. I understand why the people on the bus were frustrated, upset, enraged and hit back. Empathising with why it happened is NOT the same thing as condoning it, and certainly not the same as encouraging it or advocating for it as an appropriate course of action.

Can we forgive these guys for being frustrated, hurt and lashing out? Absolutely... but should we be telling them (and others) that it was justified? In fact not even just justified - but the RIGHT thing to do?

I just can't imagine it.

I can't imagine that you'd be approached by a child saying that another child did something to them - even something awful - and the response would be "Oh you should have socked them one back, right in the side of the head, little Jimmy".

...you can ask, TS, obviously you can...but I’m not going to answer...because your thought processes are excluding something that I said early in the thread that I was considering alongside the hateful racial abuse...
....and something that some people on the bus had also said as we see../ has been reported also etc...I’ll leave a quote here...

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Josy

Well you would be wrong thinking that then because it actually does create thoughts that the person wouldnt normally have.

Ah well after some reading I was mistaken

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I know you're not saying that it would be justifiable for people to start punching elderly people with dementia "because they were clearly still racist beforehand". At the very least, draw the line there. Surely.

If you know I wasn’t saying that then this post was entirely pointless

[reece(:]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst

Then what?

Just wondering why you are trying to come up with these what if scenarios to try and justify this man's racial abuse, hmm.

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Sure, shout him down. Call him names back. That's as far as it should go.

Racial hate speech is not "name calling".

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by reece(:

Racial hate speech is not "name calling".

At its core, that's literally what it is.

If I was on a bus and someone called me a fag, I wouldn't care less. Maybe it would technically be homophobic hate speech, but it only hurts if you let it.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst

Then what?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

At its core, that's literally what it is.

If I was on a bus and someone called me a fag, I wouldn't care less. Maybe it would technically be homophobic hate speech, but it only hurts if you let it.

It's not all about you. Understanding the world is about looking outside of your own experiences.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.

...what if we all had a nut allergy, though...