[Christmas Dynasnow]

SIR – There is an irony to Labour losing its core “working-class” vote in the Hartlepool by-election.

The party was created to defend the rights of workers against the elite ruling class but has evolved to become the party of and for that class, now made up of (among others) university-educated metropolitans, the judiciary, education institutions, the Civil Service and the BBC.

Dr David Slawson
Nairn

SIR – Sir Keir Starmer stood shoulder to shoulder with Jeremy Corbyn, seeking to make him prime minister in full knowledge of his economic illiteracy, contempt for patriotism and support for anti-Semitic factions. He voted to remain in the EU – and, had things gone his way, we would be part of its vaccine programme.

What judgment. The British people have no difficulty in seeing him for what he is: a master of hindsight and opportunism.

David Crigman QC
Birmingham

[joeysteele]

I can agree with lots of points made by Slim and TS.
I find both fascinating in their posts because they analyse in generally a positive way.

Labour has big problems in my view at present however not beyond turning around.

I was no supporter of Corbyn myself.
I make no secret that I see someone like Andy Burnham or even Wes Streeting as people I'd vote for leader of the party.

However I loved Corbyn's policies, in 2017, on the doorsteps people really liked the vision of them.
Hence his removing May's overall majority.

I was dismayed that after over a year, Starmer hasn't made a major policy statement.
You don't need to be in a hall with your invited audience to do that.

I feel Labour would be even more foolish to dump a lot of Corbyn's policies.

However, voters need to hear something.
Starmer has as yet neither thrown out all the last manifesto and hasn't created any new one either.

Of course Labour like Britain but Britain is a very divided place all round.
To its Nations and the regions of England too.

I can't say I've been impressed with a good proportion of voters in England lately.

However, and on this thread too.
As a Labour party member, we need to hear the criticisms as well as any praise.

I know Slim's views, and many others.
I know Slim is disappointed re the loss of Corbyn.

So as a member of Labour, learning the thinking of those on here I agree with and don't, is important.

The post above from LT too, who it's no secret I usually disagree bigtime with.
As to the first letter in it.
I think has much relevance and truth there.

I am happy to say I'm confused where Labour are at present, and have no idea where we're going on policy.

I wish Labour was more like the SNP with clear direction and policies.
The SNP moving more left than right, with it's social policies, independence issue aside.
Has been in power after the last 4 elections.
Being clear and decisive with an incredible in my view leader.

Why Labour faffs about, saying loads of words that go over voters heads.
Rather than get the short sharp message slogans to get interest, I haven't a clue.

In the party, I and many others are pushing to get PR adopted as policy.
That would be a start.

It would send the Cons into absolute panic.

However, I'm looking forward on this thread and others, as being in the Labour party, I'm too close to the problem, so can't see the solutions.
So it's interesting to read others views, not just praise but the criticisms too.
Because that's where learning comes from.

I mean, that anyone, foe or friend of Labour even needing to ask does Labour like Britain.
Is worrying in itself.
However, with the thinking you can take voters for granted by some in Labour, and thinking like Starmer that publicity stunting, is how to capture support, with vague and even incomplete policy making.
I'm not even surprised at the question.

So thanks to those offering their observations, from the polar opposite view to Labour and from those who I still think would, like myself, who would like to have a party again to be proud of as still Labour supporters, and those who aren't any longer but who could be won back.
If they see a genuine effort and credibility.
Neither of which I now fear will come from under Starmer's leadership.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I can agree with lots of points made by Slim and TS.
I find both fascinating in their posts because they analyse in generally a positive way.

Labour has big problems in my view at present however not beyond turning around.

I was no supporter of Corbyn myself.
I make no secret that I see someone like Andy Burnham or even Wes Streeting as people I'd vote for leader of the party.

However I loved Corbyn's policies, in 2017, on the doorsteps people really liked the vision of them.
Hence his removing May's overall majority.

I was dismayed that after over a year, Starmer hasn't made a major policy statement.
You don't need to be in a hall with your invited audience to do that.

I feel Labour would be even more foolish to dump a lot of Corbyn's policies.

However, voters need to hear something.
Starmer has as yet neither thrown out all the last manifesto and hasn't created any new one either.

Of course Labour like Britain but Britain is a very divided place all round.
To its Nations and the regions of England too.

I can't say I've been impressed with a good proportion of voters in England lately.

However, and on this thread too.
As a Labour party member, we need to hear the criticisms as well as any praise.

I know Slim's views, and many others.
I know Slim is disappointed re the loss of Corbyn.

So as a member of Labour, learning the thinking of those on here I agree with and don't, is important.

The post above from LT too, who it's no secret I usually disagree bigtime with.
As to the first letter in it.
I think has much relevance and truth there.

I am happy to say I'm confused where Labour are at present, and have no idea where we're going on policy.

I wish Labour was more like the SNP with clear direction and policies.
The SNP moving more left than right, with it's social policies, independence issue aside.
Has been in power after the last 4 elections.
Being clear and decisive with an incredible in my view leader.

Why Labour faffs about, saying loads of words that go over voters heads.
Rather than get the short sharp message slogans to get interest, I haven't a clue.

In the party, I and many others are pushing to get PR adopted as policy.
That would be a start.

It would send the Cons into absolute panic.

However, I'm looking forward on this thread and others, as being in the Labour party, I'm too close to the problem, so can't see the solutions.
So it's interesting to read others views, not just praise but the criticisms too.
Because that's where learning comes from.

I mean, that anyone, foe or friend of Labour even needing to ask does Labour like Britain.
Is worrying in itself.
However, with the thinking you can take voters for granted by some in Labour, and thinking like Starmer that publicity stunting, is how to capture support, with vague and even incomplete policy making.
I'm not even surprised at the question.

So thanks to those offering their observations, from the polar opposite view to Labour and from those who I still think would, like myself, who would like to have a party again to be proud of as still Labour supporters, and those who aren't any longer but who could be won back.
If they see a genuine effort and credibility.
Neither of which I now fear will come from under Starmer's leadership.

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man, and you will know perhaps more than anyone else on here (apart from me) exactly how his party, especially right wing labour worked against him and the left when there was a real chance of gaining power in 17, and then on to 19, which after the scare he gave them, made sure he would be destroyed by the Murdoch and tory press. He never hid in fridges when the world was lying about him and he never dodged Andrew Neil.

Give me another British politician leading a party with his record and policies and I will happily vote for them again, but labour are now in a destructive phase and will take a few years to get themselves back together imo, and reintroducing Mandelson just highlights how devoid of ideas and decency the party is.

That said, if labour enter a non-tory political coalition with PR front and centre, I would support the party through that election cycle again, but until then, I'll be a greenie for the foreseeable.

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man,

An IRA supporter decent? Never....and that's all I'll say about that, I've been through all this in the past on here and not going there again, but just couldn't let that statement pass.....

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by jet

An IRA supporter decent? Never....and that's all I'll say about that, I've been through all this in the past on here and not going there again, but just couldn't let that statement pass.....

Yeah we went through all this before, and you revealed you knew nothing then, just like now. Enjoy your evening.

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Yeah we went through all this before, and you revealed you knew nothing then, just like now. Enjoy your evening.

I know plenty about Corbyn, I was in a position to know, my father knew him well. You just don't believe it, which is fine, why should you. Doesn't make my knowledge any less true though. My last comment on this.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man, and you will know perhaps more than anyone else on here (apart from me) exactly how his party, especially right wing labour worked against him and the left when there was a real chance of gaining power in 17, and then on to 19, which after the scare he gave them, made sure he would be destroyed by the Murdoch and tory press. He never hid in fridges when the world was lying about him and he never dodged Andrew Neil.

Give me another British politician leading a party with his record and policies and I will happily vote for them again, but labour are now in a destructive phase and will take a few years to get themselves back together imo, and reintroducing Mandelson just highlights how devoid of ideas and decency the party is.

That said, if labour enter a non-tory political coalition with PR front and centre, I would support the party through that election cycle again, but until then, I'll be a greenie for the foreseeable.

Nothing much wrong with the Greens Slim.
However this is why PR is needed too to get proper representation of them in parliament..

I really hope Labour take the bull by the horns on PR and make it policy.
That will ensure in my view now better government and more representative government too.

I agree with your post.
I never myself believed Corbyn was a bad person.
As you say a few more seats down for the Cons and a few more for Labour in 2017, would have had the Cons out.
His policies then, much like 2019 would have re shaped the UK.
With support of the SNP and Plaid Cymru and the Green too.

He did connect, the media got the shock of their lives, I agree then went into even more overdrive against him.

The anti-Semite rubbish ridiculous.
The massive inquiry didn't find him anti Semitic.
That bile is what is grossly offensive.

Equally, Like you I groaned at Mandelson being wheeled out again too.
I wouldn't have been Labour in the Blair years.
I actually rated Brown more than Blair.

[Parmy]

If hating anyone with a different opinion is hating the uk.

Then yeah, I guess they and their supporters do.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by parmnion

If hating anyone with a different opinion is hating the uk.

Then yeah, I guess they and their supporters do.

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

Tough ****..

We have all had personal insults on here

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Tough ****..

We have all had personal insults on here

Indeed it is tough.
Doesn't make it right either however

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Indeed it is tough.
Doesn't make it right either however

We agree on that..

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

The too busy to attend pandemic meetings because i'm busy getting donors to pay for my flat, and refusing to feed poor children party really loves Britain.

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The too busy to attend pandemic meetings because i'm busy getting donors to pay for my flat, and refusing to feed poor children party really loves Britain.

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

Honestly, this post bolstered what I always say about the UK being spineless boot lickers. 'who wants to vote for weakness?' Being corrupt, ****ing up a Covid response by not responding to it when they had months of warnings in advance to do so and being embroiled with endless scandals makes the Tories the 'strong' option?

'It's okay Boris, no matter how much you **** up, we'll vote for you!' That's not strength, that's being a ****ing doormat.

Hell, the whole suggestion of people voting tory to vote for the winner, glory hunting with ****ing political parties, just paints a grim picture of what a tory voter looks like.

Someone who is that deep into a cult mindset can't be saved by being nice to them, they'll vote for the tory boot on their neck, just as long as they think the people they hate will get it worse.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by jet

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

My post was actually in response to another post. I've given pretty nuanced opinions throughout this thread if you'd cared to read them. We go from terrorist sympathisers to victims in the space of a couple of days in your posts, so it's always interesting to see what nonsense you'll come up with next.

If only politics was a meaningless game where your side winning meant you'd be in for bunny rabbits and rainbows, but unfortunately that's not reality, and we all have to live under the party that did exactly what you found objectionable in my post.

Vote for strength - the battle cry of every overachieving fascist.

[Parmy]

Hated by his party, which is a plus for labour.

[Parmy]

In sure the snp and their one policy agenda would have been right there with Corbyn.

[arista]

On The SkyNewsHD Paper Review
they are saying the young support Labour Now.


Leaving most others
to the Winning Conservatives

[Livia]

Having a weak opposition is terrible news for Britain. I am not a Labour supporter, but they need to sort themselves out before the next general election. Their last two leaders are a joke. No one was voting for Corbyn and his terrorist mates nor will they vote for Sir Kier, who just "took responsibility" for the disastrous election results last week by sacking Angela Rayner.

[joeysteele]

I'm pleased to hear that Angie Raynor is getting possibly 3 major roles now.

Maybe media pressure there or the outcry from some of us in the Party.

Good grief as a member I get irritated more with my party's leaders than most others bar Johnson.

[bots]

Apart from the disfunction itself within the labour party, they come across like they are preaching to the public and thats never going to get any votes. Part of that comes from the fact that often the things they want to enact are not clear and concise, they require several minutes of explanation and that just causes eyes to glaze over

The conservatives have been very successful with their 3 word slogans, people remember them. Ask a labour mp for a slogan and it will be 20 pages long

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The conservatives have been very successful with their 3 word slogans, people remember them. Ask a labour mp for a slogan and it will be 20 pages long

That is true but also so, so depressing.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That is true but also so, so depressing.

i think a lot of labours problem is that their policy comes from lots of diverse and inclusive committees, so the end product is just mush when it finally appears. Tony Blair was successful in labour because he didn't let a key message get diluted

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That is true but also so, so depressing.

…it is as you say, really quite saddening to see …

…’getting it done’…regardless of the impact on the Good Friday Agreement…(…for instance…)…because our Boris would be ‘dead in a ditch’…although that is four words, I have to say…)…than think of a delay on Brexit…not good for his career, that delay…anyways, we won’t even touch on the Covid ones ….