[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I can agree with lots of points made by Slim and TS.
I find both fascinating in their posts because they analyse in generally a positive way.

Labour has big problems in my view at present however not beyond turning around.

I was no supporter of Corbyn myself.
I make no secret that I see someone like Andy Burnham or even Wes Streeting as people I'd vote for leader of the party.

However I loved Corbyn's policies, in 2017, on the doorsteps people really liked the vision of them.
Hence his removing May's overall majority.

I was dismayed that after over a year, Starmer hasn't made a major policy statement.
You don't need to be in a hall with your invited audience to do that.

I feel Labour would be even more foolish to dump a lot of Corbyn's policies.

However, voters need to hear something.
Starmer has as yet neither thrown out all the last manifesto and hasn't created any new one either.

Of course Labour like Britain but Britain is a very divided place all round.
To its Nations and the regions of England too.

I can't say I've been impressed with a good proportion of voters in England lately.

However, and on this thread too.
As a Labour party member, we need to hear the criticisms as well as any praise.

I know Slim's views, and many others.
I know Slim is disappointed re the loss of Corbyn.

So as a member of Labour, learning the thinking of those on here I agree with and don't, is important.

The post above from LT too, who it's no secret I usually disagree bigtime with.
As to the first letter in it.
I think has much relevance and truth there.

I am happy to say I'm confused where Labour are at present, and have no idea where we're going on policy.

I wish Labour was more like the SNP with clear direction and policies.
The SNP moving more left than right, with it's social policies, independence issue aside.
Has been in power after the last 4 elections.
Being clear and decisive with an incredible in my view leader.

Why Labour faffs about, saying loads of words that go over voters heads.
Rather than get the short sharp message slogans to get interest, I haven't a clue.

In the party, I and many others are pushing to get PR adopted as policy.
That would be a start.

It would send the Cons into absolute panic.

However, I'm looking forward on this thread and others, as being in the Labour party, I'm too close to the problem, so can't see the solutions.
So it's interesting to read others views, not just praise but the criticisms too.
Because that's where learning comes from.

I mean, that anyone, foe or friend of Labour even needing to ask does Labour like Britain.
Is worrying in itself.
However, with the thinking you can take voters for granted by some in Labour, and thinking like Starmer that publicity stunting, is how to capture support, with vague and even incomplete policy making.
I'm not even surprised at the question.

So thanks to those offering their observations, from the polar opposite view to Labour and from those who I still think would, like myself, who would like to have a party again to be proud of as still Labour supporters, and those who aren't any longer but who could be won back.
If they see a genuine effort and credibility.
Neither of which I now fear will come from under Starmer's leadership.

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man, and you will know perhaps more than anyone else on here (apart from me) exactly how his party, especially right wing labour worked against him and the left when there was a real chance of gaining power in 17, and then on to 19, which after the scare he gave them, made sure he would be destroyed by the Murdoch and tory press. He never hid in fridges when the world was lying about him and he never dodged Andrew Neil.

Give me another British politician leading a party with his record and policies and I will happily vote for them again, but labour are now in a destructive phase and will take a few years to get themselves back together imo, and reintroducing Mandelson just highlights how devoid of ideas and decency the party is.

That said, if labour enter a non-tory political coalition with PR front and centre, I would support the party through that election cycle again, but until then, I'll be a greenie for the foreseeable.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

Tough ****..

We have all had personal insults on here

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

The too busy to attend pandemic meetings because i'm busy getting donors to pay for my flat, and refusing to feed poor children party really loves Britain.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Tough ****..

We have all had personal insults on here

Indeed it is tough.
Doesn't make it right either however

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Indeed it is tough.
Doesn't make it right either however

We agree on that..

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The too busy to attend pandemic meetings because i'm busy getting donors to pay for my flat, and refusing to feed poor children party really loves Britain.

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man,

An IRA supporter decent? Never....and that's all I'll say about that, I've been through all this in the past on here and not going there again, but just couldn't let that statement pass.....

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

Honestly, this post bolstered what I always say about the UK being spineless boot lickers. 'who wants to vote for weakness?' Being corrupt, ****ing up a Covid response by not responding to it when they had months of warnings in advance to do so and being embroiled with endless scandals makes the Tories the 'strong' option?

'It's okay Boris, no matter how much you **** up, we'll vote for you!' That's not strength, that's being a ****ing doormat.

Hell, the whole suggestion of people voting tory to vote for the winner, glory hunting with ****ing political parties, just paints a grim picture of what a tory voter looks like.

Someone who is that deep into a cult mindset can't be saved by being nice to them, they'll vote for the tory boot on their neck, just as long as they think the people they hate will get it worse.

[parmnion]

Hated by his party, which is a plus for labour.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Honestly, this post bolstered what I always say about the UK being spineless boot lickers. 'who wants to vote for weakness?' Being corrupt, ****ing up a Covid response by not responding to it when they had months of warnings in advance to do so and being embroiled with endless scandals makes the Tories the 'strong' option?

'It's okay Boris, no matter how much you **** up, we'll vote for you!' That's not strength, that's being a ****ing doormat.

Hell, the whole suggestion of people voting tory to vote for the winner, glory hunting with ****ing political parties, just paints a grim picture of what a tory voter looks like.

Someone who is that deep into a cult mindset can't be saved by being nice to them, they'll vote for the tory boot on their neck, just as long as they think the people they hate will get it worse.

You dont like boris...we get that.

But there is no need to be rude about people who think the wee weird shaped bodied man, and his toosly hair ain't all about being for Great Britain.

Inclusive.


Not like labour, and its fading, angry voters who still attack the honest families with false, desperate bile.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by jet

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

My post was actually in response to another post. I've given pretty nuanced opinions throughout this thread if you'd cared to read them. We go from terrorist sympathisers to victims in the space of a couple of days in your posts, so it's always interesting to see what nonsense you'll come up with next.

If only politics was a meaningless game where your side winning meant you'd be in for bunny rabbits and rainbows, but unfortunately that's not reality, and we all have to live under the party that did exactly what you found objectionable in my post.

Vote for strength - the battle cry of every overachieving fascist.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by jet

An IRA supporter decent? Never....and that's all I'll say about that, I've been through all this in the past on here and not going there again, but just couldn't let that statement pass.....

Yeah we went through all this before, and you revealed you knew nothing then, just like now. Enjoy your evening.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man, and you will know perhaps more than anyone else on here (apart from me) exactly how his party, especially right wing labour worked against him and the left when there was a real chance of gaining power in 17, and then on to 19, which after the scare he gave them, made sure he would be destroyed by the Murdoch and tory press. He never hid in fridges when the world was lying about him and he never dodged Andrew Neil.

Give me another British politician leading a party with his record and policies and I will happily vote for them again, but labour are now in a destructive phase and will take a few years to get themselves back together imo, and reintroducing Mandelson just highlights how devoid of ideas and decency the party is.

That said, if labour enter a non-tory political coalition with PR front and centre, I would support the party through that election cycle again, but until then, I'll be a greenie for the foreseeable.

Nothing much wrong with the Greens Slim.
However this is why PR is needed too to get proper representation of them in parliament..

I really hope Labour take the bull by the horns on PR and make it policy.
That will ensure in my view now better government and more representative government too.

I agree with your post.
I never myself believed Corbyn was a bad person.
As you say a few more seats down for the Cons and a few more for Labour in 2017, would have had the Cons out.
His policies then, much like 2019 would have re shaped the UK.
With support of the SNP and Plaid Cymru and the Green too.

He did connect, the media got the shock of their lives, I agree then went into even more overdrive against him.

The anti-Semite rubbish ridiculous.
The massive inquiry didn't find him anti Semitic.
That bile is what is grossly offensive.

Equally, Like you I groaned at Mandelson being wheeled out again too.
I wouldn't have been Labour in the Blair years.
I actually rated Brown more than Blair.

[parmnion]

In sure the snp and their one policy agenda would have been right there with Corbyn.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Honestly, this post bolstered what I always say about the UK being spineless boot lickers. 'who wants to vote for weakness?' Being corrupt, ****ing up a Covid response by not responding to it when they had months of warnings in advance to do so and being embroiled with endless scandals makes the Tories the 'strong' option?

'It's okay Boris, no matter how much you **** up, we'll vote for you!' That's not strength, that's being a ****ing doormat.

Hell, the whole suggestion of people voting tory to vote for the winner, glory hunting with ****ing political parties, just paints a grim picture of what a tory voter looks like.

Someone who is that deep into a cult mindset can't be saved by being nice to them, they'll vote for the tory boot on their neck, just as long as they think the people they hate will get it worse.

Ummm….oh dear. So anyway, do you have an actual answer as to why so many working class are deserting Labour more than ever and voting Tory other than the usual childish insults which just smack of ‘they are a thick and spineless cult because they don’t think like me’.
Boris is just another Tory leader, no point in heaping all the blame on him, we have to go back to 1974 to find a ‘bona fide’ Labour leader because the one and only successful Labour leader since then was Blair and wasn’t he seen by many to be more centre right than centre left really?
....and I've already told you I don't vote Tory so I haven't a vested interest. I'm from N. Ireland and have always voted SDLP.
So do you have anything other than mindless insults to offer as to why this was/is?

[jet]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Yeah we went through all this before, and you revealed you knew nothing then, just like now. Enjoy your evening.

I know plenty about Corbyn, I was in a position to know, my father knew him well. You just don't believe it, which is fine, why should you. Doesn't make my knowledge any less true though. My last comment on this.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You dont like boris...we get that.

But there is no need to be rude about people who think the wee weird shaped bodied man, and his toosly hair ain't all about being for Great Britain.

Inclusive.


Not like labour, and its fading, angry voters who still attack the honest families with false, desperate bile.

You can say what you want about labour, I don't support them so well done on your latest failure to try to rile me, maybe you'll be successful one day, I won't hold my breath.

You see, I'm not like the tory voters who are loyal to the tories to the end. Parties should be loyal to the voters, voters shouldn't be loyal to a party. Tory voters don't get that which is why they constantly vote for a party that ****s on them. It doesn't matter what Boris and the others do, because Tory voters will always vote for them regardless. They will always do what they are told, and I will freely criticise the **** out of them for doing so.

Don't like it? Aww diddums. I have no time for pearl clutching.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

Ummm….oh dear. So anyway, do you have an actual answer as to why so many working class are deserting Labour more than ever and voting Tory other than the usual childish insults which just smack of ‘they are a thick and spineless cult because they don’t think like me’.
Boris is just another Tory leader, no point in heaping all the blame on him, we have to go back to 1974 to find a ‘bona fide’ Labour leader because the one and only successful Labour leader since then was Blair and wasn’t he seen by many to be more centre right than centre left really?
....and I've already told you I don't vote Tory so I haven't a vested interest. I'm from N. Ireland and have always voted SDLP.
So do you have anything other than mindless insults to offer as to why this was/is?

What you vote for is irrelevant, I wasn't commenting on you. You mentioned Tory voters, I gave my thoughts on Tory voters. It's really that simple.

Why are you getting so offended, why are you so offended by my views on tories if you aren't one? It's quite frankly bizarre.

Honestly, if you want to act like I'm victimising you, go do your routine to someone who might actually care. We all know how this is going to go anyway, you're gonna respond with your latest attempt to turn one of my phrases against me, I'll embarrass you by pointing out that you didn't get the phrase or the context right, you'll get mad, scream a bunch of insults and then act like you're not gonna read my posts for about five minutes until you can't resist the urge to respond. It's all very predictable (cue your attempt to make out that I'm predictable instead, because 'I know you are, but what am I?' is your go to move in every discussion).

I'm bored. I'm just so bored of the disengenuine bull****, bored of the pearl clutching. It's just all too easy, give me a challenge. Just once.

[arista]

On The SkyNewsHD Paper Review
they are saying the young support Labour Now.


Leaving most others
to the Winning Conservatives

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

What you vote for is irrelevant, I wasn't commenting on you. You mentioned Tory voters, I gave my thoughts on Tory voters. It's really that simple.

Why are you getting so offended, why are you so offended by my views on tories if you aren't one? It's quite frankly bizarre.

Honestly, if you want to act like I'm victimising you, go do your routine to someone who might actually care. We all know how this is going to go anyway, you're gonna respond with your latest attempt to turn one of my phrases against me, I'll embarrass you by pointing out that you didn't get the phrase or the context right, you'll get mad, scream a bunch of insults and then act like you're not gonna read my posts for about five minutes until you can't resist the urge to respond. It's all very predictable (cue your attempt to make out that I'm predictable instead, because 'I know you are, but what am I?' is your go to move in every discussion).

I'm bored. I'm just so bored of the disengenuine bull****, bored of the pearl clutching. It's just all too easy, give me a challenge. Just once.

I did, and you ran away from answering it with your usual diversionary BS and bleating about how you expect to get insulted - while throwing out insults. Be big enough to take what you give out without always playing the victim. I'm not offended, I'm participating in a debate.
As for pearl clutching, it comes from one very angry side, and it isn't mine; the little beads must be scattered all over the floor in their thousands.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

I did, and you ran away from answering it with your usual diversionary BS and bleating about how you expect to get insulted - while throwing out insults. Be big enough to take what you give out without always playing the victim.
As for pearl clutching, it comes from one very angry side, and it isn't mine; the little beads must be scattered all over the floor in their thousands. :laugh

Like clockwork, a whole bunch of 'I know you are, but what am I?'. I don't think you even realise you're doing it at this point, it's just an automatic response.

The fact you tried to make out that I'm trying to act like a victim is hilarious because it shows that you have, once again, completely garbled your attempt at reading what I wrote. I wasn't bemoaning your insults, I was mocking the fact that you're entirely predictable, as proven by your response which I called out before you wrote it.

Also, you REALLY need to learn what my phrases mean before you use them, I'm honestly feeling bad for you at this point.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Like clockwork, a whole bunch of 'I know you are, but what am I?'. I don't think you even realise you're doing it at this point, it's just an automatic response.

The fact you tried to make out that I'm trying to act like a victim is hilarious because it shows that you have, once again, completely garbled your attempt at reading what I wrote. I wasn't bemoaning your insults, I was mocking the fact that you're entirely predictable, as proven by your response which I called out before you wrote it.

Also, you REALLY need to learn what my phrases mean before you use them, I'm honestly feeling bad for you at this point.

That's all very fascinating and riveting stuff right there I'm sure but the question wasn't about me and how I choose to respond to your diversions. Can you now answer the question which you have avoided thus far. It was a genuine question asked because your usual 'tory voters are thick and will continue to vote for them even when they s*** on them yadda yadda' doesn't really explain why previous dedicated Labour supporters are now voting for the Cons - from a Tory detractors point of view. If you don't know, just say so, maybe someone else will oblige.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

There are definitely areas of both agreement and disagreement here, but I'm going to say we need to break them down further. For example, what is the moral absolute you think is objectional when it comes to racial equality, and what thinking argument needs to be made to justify it? Because for me, that's a pretty surface level issue, it also ignores the fact that these arguments have been back and forth for centuries, and all the previous eugenicist arguments have been completely debunked.

We do find agreement when it comes to gender especially. I rarely ever comment myself in those threads (as an example) because I'm still trying to work out where my own positions on the subject fall. I know what my positions are, but it's where my positions lead where my issues are revealed. For example, I'm for transgender equality, but I don't think they should be taking part in sports, but then exclusion from sports, especially within schools is also pretty damaging imo, but sports are also exclusionary for someone with the wrong body size, or an odour issue. I just haven't seen any satisfying arguments for how these additional issues are resolved, and I do think there is a certain left wing orthodoxy here so i do take your point. Just for a bit of context though, people didn't just start banging out about these rights for a laugh, it was in response to the "blokes in women's bathrooms" brigade. Which of course was a fully thought out, fully reasoned, intellectual discipline.

Same as antifa, which is actually a good example, because if you got 5 lefties in a room, I'd be amazed if you only received one opinion, but to the wider point, antifa didn't just spring up for a laugh, it was in response to the increasing popularity of neo-nazis and fascism, which now holds power over one of the 2 parties in America.

I do think there are issues where morality exists and where simple right and wrong are in combat, but cognitive dissonance is a thing for a reason, and I do think you've both-sides this a little too far.

Finally, I'd just like to thank you for taking part in a good faith discussion, an increasingly and depressingly rare thing these days on here.

Just want to say that I am planning to respond to this when I get a proper chance, currently wrestling with WFH over a broken internet connection/phone tethering which is a nightmare. The thread has gone to the dogs a little but it's an interesting discussion in places so do want to formulate a response.

It's lead to some interesting discussions with my wife about moral absolutism and post-structuralism. We're so metal.

[Livia]

Having a weak opposition is terrible news for Britain. I am not a Labour supporter, but they need to sort themselves out before the next general election. Their last two leaders are a joke. No one was voting for Corbyn and his terrorist mates nor will they vote for Sir Kier, who just "took responsibility" for the disastrous election results last week by sacking Angela Rayner.

[joeysteele]

I'm pleased to hear that Angie Raynor is getting possibly 3 major roles now.

Maybe media pressure there or the outcry from some of us in the Party.

Good grief as a member I get irritated more with my party's leaders than most others bar Johnson.